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The Case Against Matt Ryan

Alright, I guess it's time for me to lay it all out on the line.  So that's what I'm going to do.  I'm here today to tell you all (like you really care, but I'm going to do it anyway) that I am completely against the idea of the Dolphins taking Matt Ryan with the #1 overall pick.  I'm sure many of you have assumed this based on some of the things we've talked about recently, but now I will go on record and say that I hope the Dolphins do not take Matt Ryan first overall.

So, why am I against Matt Ryan?  Well, despite what some think, it's not because I'm 100% sold on John Beck.  After all, how could anyone be sold on him after last season?  My feelings on Beck are that I think there's more of a chance he becomes a very good quarterback in this league than there is of him turning into a total bust.  But that's not what this is about.

What this is about is me not being sold on Matt Ryan enough to take him #1 overall and pay him the $35+ million in guaranteed money that he'll be looking for.  So I'll present some arguments as to why I am not sold on Ryan, but I am aware that this is very subjective and somebody could easily make a case in favor of Ryan.  

Let me start by just pointing out the "bust-rate" of quarterbacks drafted in the top 5 of the last 18 drafts.  Below are the QBs, with their pick # in parentheses:

  1. JaMarcus Russell (1)
  2. Vince Young (3)
  3. Alex Smith (1)
  4. Eli Manning (1), Philip Rivers (4)
  5. Carson Palmer (1)
  6. David Carr (1), Joey Harrington (3)
  7. Michael Vick (1)
  8. Tim Couch (1), Donovan McNabb (2), Akili Smith (3)
  9. Peyton Manning (1), Ryan Leaf (2)
  10. Steve McNair (3), Kerry Collins (5)
  11. Heath Shuler (3)
  12. Drew Bledsoe (1), Rick Mirer (2)
  13. Jeff George (1)
So that's a total of 20 quarterbacks taken in the top 5 since 1990.  Of those 20, I count 10 as either slight disappointments or major disappointments.  Those 10 are Alex Smith, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Michael Vick, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Rick Mirer, and Jeff George.  That's 50% of the QBs picked in the top 5.  And that's with me leaving off Kerry Collins and Drew Bledsoe, though I don't think either of them would be worthy of a top 5 pick if you went back and redrafted after seeing the future.  

Also, of the 10 QBs picked #1 overall, 5 of them are busts.  That's a very high rate of disappointment for top QBs in the NFL Draft.  Is that a risk you want to take?  Is it really a good idea for a franchise that's in the kind of mess it's in and with the number holes it has to take a huge risk and invest that kind of money into Matt Ryan when history shows that the "bust rate" for QBs is fairly high?  I just don't see how it is worth it, especially considering if the Dolphins take Ryan and he never pans out, that would set this franchise back even more (which is hard to imagine considering the new lows this franchise seems to reach with each passing year).

The second argument I want to make is another very subjective one, but a fair one to make.  It's been said by many recently that the two best predictors in terms of college stats to try and see how a college quarterback will transition to the NFL are career starts and completion percentage.  For Matt Ryan, that would be a relatively low number of starts, with 31, but a relatively decent completion percentage of 60%.  If you go back as far as 1998, Ryan's closest comparisons to QBs taken in round 1 would be Rex Grossman and Vince Young, as both had 32 career starts and completed 61% of their passes in college.  Neither has had much success in the NFL, though Young is still young (no pun intended) and Grossman did reach a Super Bowl.  A lot of the success Young has had, though, has been thanks to his athleticism, which Ryan clearly doesn't have.

Actually, this Matt Ryan/Rex Grossman comparison got me thinking a bit.  Both players are very alike.  Sure, Grossman is only 6'1 while Ryan is almost 6'5, but read the following scouting report below from NFL Draft Countdown:

Strengths
Smart and understands how to read a defense...Is a natural born leader...Solid technique and mechanics...Displays great poise...Good touch and timing...Able to buy time in the pocket...Throws well on the run...A hard worker

Weaknesses
Arm strength is only average...Still throws too many interceptions...Accuracy can be streaky...Struggles with the deep ball...A bit of a gunslinger who will play too recklessly at times...Not very mobile and won't beat you with his feet...May have some minor durability issues...Isn't a great athlete...May not have a huge upside.

Notes
Really emerged as a top pro prospect as a senior, propelling his team to a great season even though he was surrounded by ordinary talent...Physical tools aren't special but they're adequate across the board and his intangibles are second to none...A safe pick who should become a solid starter at the next level but probably isn't a franchise signal caller.

Maybe I'm crazy, but does that report sound like a description of Rex Grossman to a certain extent?  Fine, maybe it is just me.  Regardless, though, is this the kind of player you want to spend the #1 overall pick on and give a boatload of money to?  A player who is a leader and has poise but lacks arm strength, accuracy, and forces too many throws?  Maybe it's just me, but how can you justify drafting a player with the first overall pick whose "physical tools aren't special but they're adequate"?  Oh, and please don't come back at me by saying Mike Mayock, whose opinion is usually held in high regard, believes Matt Ryan is going to be great.  Of course Mayock says that.  He, like Ryan, went to and played for Boston College and it's rumored that Mayock is a friend of Matt Ryan's family.  So what's he going to say?

I could still go on and on about why I'm against the idea of taking Matt Ryan #1 overall.  But I think I laid a solid foundation to give you all some perspective as to why I feel the way I do.  Yes, there's more.  But some already touched on these ideas in this diary and I don't want to sound like a broken record or anything.  But when all is said and done, I'll stand behind the decision of Bill Parcells and Jeff Ireland.  And if, for some reason, they like Matt Ryan and decide he is worthy of the #1 overall pick, I'll live with it.  After all, they are the ones getting paid the big bucks to make these decisions for this franchise.  I'm just one of the many who spend the big bucks to support this franchise.

Thoughts below...

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Wow Matty
You really outdone yourself this time. You actually sat down and wrote a article against a pick oooook.

First you really think of Vick as a bust/disappointment? Are you serious. Off the field ya, but ON the field you got to be kidding? Same goes for Jeff George. Alex Smith, he has been hurt, and still 4 years younger than Beck and he has been in the league 3 yrs now. I'll give you the rest but out the 20 you named I only counted 7 I wouldn't want.

Look at what some of the other QBs did for thier teams. Both Mannings, McNabb, Bledsoe (who Parcells drafted #1 over all), McNair all took their teams to the SB. Palmer, Vick, Young (another QB that doesn't look great, but gets the job done, remind you of anyone), Rivers their play speaks for itself.

Carr (poor man getting sacked every time he took a 2 step drop the 1st 3 seasons of his career) Harrington, Smith, Collin (expansion). Look at the teams that drafted these poor souls. 2 expansion teams Texans, Panthers...The Lions and the Bengals (when even stink would say they stink). None have been known to draft talent or develope QBs

In no way, shape or form would I compare Ryan to Grossman, how could you? Grossman was surrouned by the talent rich Gators. Tell me who is coming out beside Ryan from BC (on offense especially)that will be a 1st round pick? Hell lets go the 1st 3 rounds.

Tell Beck I said hey because he most had been sitting beside you helping type this nonsense.

We now you love Beck, but lets keep this positive and build up players, instead of taking a nice rip out them for no apparent reason. Nice to do it in diaries and such, but to make full blown article about it well.....

PS B@tch slap Cameron too.

"It all starts with the Dolphins," an executive with another team said Sunday, "and not a single person here has any idea what they're going to do."

by Neo on Mar 14, 2008 12:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Neo Neo Neo...
..breathe my good man..

While I don't agree with Matty on this one, and I don't see it as a:

   ~rip...for no apparent reason~

I think Matty is entitled to his opinion and can post it where he feels like- it started another good discussion anyway.

I agree with a lot of your points in your reply, but it almost sounds like Matt Ryan is your brother or something. Neo Ryan?

The Jayfiss Report ...one fan's rants.

by NumberSeven on Mar 14, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm breathing quite fine ty
Of course he is entitled aand can post it when and wherever he wants, it his website.

For the record, I'm all for taking Jake Long ahead of Ryan. I never seen Matty just go off on a particular player like this before. This bash just seem to come out of nowhere and there aren't many like me that wouldn't mind the Matt Ryan pick so....

~it started another good discussion ~

without responses like mine to pick up for Ryan how good would this discussion be?

"It all starts with the Dolphins," an executive with another team said Sunday, "and not a single person here has any idea what they're going to do."

by Neo on Mar 14, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LMFAO
That was a great response lol. I would like to add that in a few cases the situation the new QB came into didnt help his career. I agree with Parcells when he says you can do more damage to a rookie QB by playing him to early. I would also like to add that coaching and how a team builds around these guys is also important. Like having a good TE or a Good LT a game plan that uses the QB strengths to attack a defense. With that being said there are some QB on the list that suck and would suck no matter who coached them or what team they where on.

by jvw on Mar 14, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

uh....
what qb that has a better arm than ryan came out from a horrible non-talented recieving crew but still excelled......

(matty i got ur back...beck is the future)

by finsxfactor on Mar 14, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

vick
i'd agree vick was a disappointment on the field, he looked promising early on, but never developed into a solid enough thrower,,, i'd feel much better about our qb situation with john beck or joe flacco than i would with mr. INT matt ryan.

by buster on Mar 14, 2008 1:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Vick was nothing special on the field, other than he was a  WR with acannon for an arm.

by Patssuck456 on Mar 14, 2008 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vick was the most
dangerous QB in the game for about two to three years. I didnt think he was a complete QB and didnt really care for him but I will give him his due. In my opinion he was not a disappoinment on the field and he never fully developed into a great QB but he also never had any good WR.

by jvw on Mar 14, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another opinion
You draft a QB in the 1st RD, you are expecting them to be a starter for your team, plain and simple - if not in year 1, definitely by year 2.  You pick one up with a top 5 pick, you are expecting them to be a franchise QB for you and lead your team to the playoffs, etc. (Starter almost immediately, especially if they don't hold out)

Using that logic:

JaMarcus Russell (Too soon to tell anything)
Vince Young (Jury still out - 9TDs and 17 INTs last year though??Not looking promising.)
Alex Smith (jury still out - 19 TDs and 31 INTs in career??? Not looking promising)
Eli Manning (Solid)
Philip Rivers (Solid)
Carson Palmer (Solid)
David Carr (Bust - replaced by Testaverde at age 50 - nuff said)
Joey Harrington (Bust - 79 TDs and 85 INTs career.)
Michael Vick (Solid)
Tim Couch (Bust)
Donovan McNabb (Solid)
Akili Smith (Bust)
Peyton Manning (Solid)
Ryan Leaf (Bust)
Steve McNair (Solid early on - needs to retire now though)
Kerry Collins (Solid career)
Heath Shuler (Bust)
Drew Bledsoe (Solid)
Rick Mirer (Bust - #2 overall pick - 50TDs and 76 INTs career??)
Jeff George (Bust - 1 good season does not make a career)

Take out the "jury still out" guys and you have 9 solid starters and 8 busts. (Consider busts because of where they were drafted and what they did)  Means you have roughly a 50-50 shot.

Jake Long comes in and plays 10+ years for the Fins - assuming he is not Tony Mandarich...  Ryan comes in and - fingers crossed........  I have no doubt Ryan is a good QB - but are you willing to bet $30+M in GUARANTEED money on him that he will be the QB of the future here?  If you are wrong, you are in a cap quandary for years to come.

Long fills a greater need for this team RIGHT NOW.  Is Beck a (Solid) QB?  No idea, but if you have a solid line and a good running game....  Even Trent Dilfer can take a team to the Super Bowl.  Why not pick up Flacco or Henne or the kid from San Diego in the 2nd round if you are going after a QB and let them compete)

Look, we're not going to the SB this year, lets be realistic.  Build the offensive and defensive lines, see what you got with Beck/McCown - maybe a rookie draft pick in the mix - you will probably end up with a top-10 pick next year again, plus free agent QB's next year....  

You've got to build from the inside-out.  

Definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...

by azphinner on Mar 14, 2008 1:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I may not be able to
express myself the way you did in your very first paragraph, but what you said is EXACTLY the way I feel.  I TOTALLY agree with your statement, your opinion.  Jake Long would be a VERY SAFE pick.  He's what we need to build a foundation.

by Cutie on Mar 14, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would not be
upset with a Jake Long pick.

by jvw on Mar 14, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Matt Ryan's a Tom Brady Clone...
The strengths, weaknesses, measureables, and intangibles that you pointed out in Matt Ryan are the same clone-like ones of one, Tom Brady.  He is the same physical and mental makeup of Tom Brady.  Thus, why many passed on him.  Well, look at how that turned out.  And u want us to do the same?  Dude, u really made ur self look like an arss on this one...

by mred on Mar 14, 2008 2:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

DId you
really just make that comparison?  Wow.  When Matt Ryan fails in the NFL will all these people ripping Matty I come back and apologize?

by JMFlyer1454 on Mar 14, 2008 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, u really made ur self look like an arss...
...by making this comment. If you disagree with Matty, fine. However, his argument was laid out in an intelligent manner. I happen to disagree with him, but that doesn't make him an arss. Be constructive if you disagree and leave it at that.

I am one of the biggest pro Matt Ryan people here, but I would NEVER go so far as to compare him to Tom Brady. Heck, not one team saw in Tom Brady what he has become, or they would have drafted him at the top of the draft. That's why the draft is an inexact science.

by dab415217 on Mar 14, 2008 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeap...
what you said!

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
Your article makes a strong point for not drafting a quarterback with the first pick. I have not seen enough of Matt Ryan to really formulate an honest opinion, accordingly if Parcells thinks the the kid is worth of the first pick, I gotta respect his decision.

Matty, can you do the same article for LT and DE?

I am so on the fence about who I want the Dolphins to draft...

by henry on Mar 14, 2008 4:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

how about
a scouting report on those guys from before the drafts?  Then we could see what everyone thought about them before they got picked.  It would give us a little better perspective since all you're doing is guessing right now.  

At the end of the day...pic one of the longs and I'll be happy!

by njFinFan on Mar 14, 2008 4:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Matty...
I think it is good that you have put out your opinion in very clear terms, on Matt Ryan. This is the #1 overall pick, we can't be wishy washy about it as the implications of the selection are substantial.

And guess what?

I'm in complete agreement with you about Ryan. I posted some comments in a recent diary about QB's having a bust rate of about 50% as well as Ryan's rather unimpressive numbers. That's an incredibly high number. Couple the high failure rate with the $35M+ in guaranteed money and now the stakes get very high.

The moment you draft Matt Ryan, a chain of events starts that has a big effect. First off, since you have to pay the kid so much, he eventually has to play. What happens if Beck plays well - after all, he definitely has potential? You let $35M+ (ryan) sit on the bench? Sure you might conceive of a trade but you'll never get a #1 overall pick in return for an untested QB like that. Nor will you get back the money you invested and in addition, you pass up selecting a different player, like a top Offensive Tackle (Long), in order to pick Ryan.

I admire his intangibles and such. However, leadership and maturity in and of themselves won't make you a good NFL QB. Your game best be good enough and that's what I am not convinced of with Ryan. His physical abilities don't stand out, he doesn't have a great arm, he doesn't have a quick release, nor is he athletic or fast. For that matter his accuracy isn't all that impressive either - his best in any season is 62.1%, while his career completion percentage is less than 60%.

Maybe he'll be a great QB but I'm not sold on him.

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 9:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Dolphins QB Situation Exactly Mirrors...
...the San Diego Chargers situation from a few years ago. Drew Brees was the 2nd round draft choice. They drafted Philip Rivers very high and let him sit for a couple of years before letting Brees go and giving the job to Rivers. That's worked out pretty well for them. Although, I would hope to eventually be able to trade Beck if he turns out to be anywhere near as good as Brees did.

Honestly, if we did draft Ryan #1, I'd rather throw him in there right off the bat, not because of the money, but because Beck has yet to prove himself. However, if Beck was to clearly beat out Ryan in training camp, I would have no problem letting Ryan sit for a year or two.

by dab415217 on Mar 14, 2008 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Should Have Said WOULD...
...mirror the Chargers situation if they drafted Ryan.

by dab415217 on Mar 14, 2008 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the Way...
...in that case I would NOT have drafted Rivers, because I was very high on Brees coming out of college. But the Chargers obviously knew what they were doing. And Brees hasn't turned out to bad either.

by dab415217 on Mar 14, 2008 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's what happens though...
suppose you draft Ryan but Beck starts playing well.

What do you do? You can't let the $35 Million-dollar kid sit on the bench...

You could...

a) trade away Ryan for less than you got him, plus all that you paid him, plus you missed out on drafting another player who could help, by selecting Ryan.

That's a lot eh?

b) trade away Beck for maybe what you got him for (say a 2nd round pick). But then you are turning over your team to an unknown (Ryan). No matter what his pedigree or draft status, you are turning over the team to a player who has not proven himself. And are you seriously going to do that if Beck makes you competitive?

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You Can't Let the Money Dictate Who To Start.
Again, I would urge you to look closely at the San Diego QB situation. Look at the parallels and how that has turned out.

Brees was already established as the starter. He had 2 so-so seasons as the starter but wasn't bad. Then they drafted Philip Rivers. Guess what? Brees came into his own that year. So rather than rush Rivers into being the starting QB, he was able to sit for two years behind one of the better starting QB's in the league. And the Chargers, knowing that Rivers was the future at the position, franchised Brees to keep him around for one more year. Brees was alowed to leave via free-agency, and Rivers became the starter in his 3rd year. And he's worked out pretty well since.

The difference between the two situations is that our incumbant QB has NOT proven himself yet.

So my question would be, would it be so bad to have Beck play well for a couple of years, and let Ryan be groomed and not forced right away? Also, I look at it as we'll also have a guy ready to go just in  case Beck isn't ready. And if Beck isn't ready, would you rather ride a Josh McCown for 2 years or a Matt Ryan? For me, I'd rather take a shot with Ryan.

I realize that this isn't the popular scenario here, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

by dab415217 on Mar 14, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm afraid
you can't discount money. Not when we are talking $35M guaranteed, plus whatever is not. That would put a pretty good sized dent in your salary cap.

Why did the Chargers let Brees go, while keeping Rivers and not vice versa? Because they had too much  money tied up in the QB position, particularly in Rivers.

But guess what?

Brees walks in FA and Rivers takes over. Nobody at that point knows if Rivers will do well. Remember the bust rate is 50% or so for QB's.

Do you turn over your franchise to an unproven QB and let a guy go who you know can play? That's exactly the decision the Browns faced this year.

I'll give you what I view as a better alternative...

Take a guy in the 2nd round such as Henne or Flacco or Brohm. Then instead of $35M guaranteed, you are looking at maybe $4-5M guaranteed (just like John Beck). That's basically what's happening in Cleveland now with Brady Quinn, where they can keep both guys because they don't have so much money committed to them.

If Beck plays lights out, then you are only out $4-5M on Henne/Flacco/whomever and you can cut McCown later. If Beck flops, then you have Henne/Flacco/etc that you can turn to as an alternative...

Anyway, I'm cool with you sticking to your story since neither of us really have any say in the matter! :)

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have to disagree Nat
~Why did the Chargers let Brees go, while keeping Rivers and not vice versa? Because they had too much  money tied up in the QB position, particularly in Rivers.~

Although they did let 1 go for the money, they didn't keep Rivers particuarlly because of that. The injury to Bree's shoulder in th last game of 2005 to the Broncos really called into question his ability to recover. Matter of fact money wasn't so much a issue that they franchised him and didn't let him go until after the injury.

"It all starts with the Dolphins," an executive with another team said Sunday, "and not a single person here has any idea what they're going to do."

by Neo on Mar 14, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand your point Neo...
but let me say this.

Rivers was already on the books for $40M on a six year deal (plus what they were already paying Brees).

With that in mind - can you really say that SD could afford to keep letting this kid sit - even if Bree's had not gotten hurt?

They had already paid him for 2 years and he'd basically done nothing but hold a clipboard.

Meanwhile Would any team really keep paying out that kind of money for a backup QB, no matter who the starter is?

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see what your saying
but I couldn't say for certain that they would've let Brees go instead of trying to trade Rivers if Brees wouldn't had gotten hurt.
"It all starts with the Dolphins," an executive with another team said Sunday, "and not a single person here has any idea what they're going to do."

by Neo on Mar 14, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We can agree to...
disagree then on this one.

If Parcells thinks highly enough of Ryan and figures he's the guy, then drafts him - then hey, I'm on board. I'll root for him to do well and hope for the best.

Much like the John Beck selection. I didn't like them passing on Quinn but that's irrelevant now as Beck is a Dolphin. And I hope he (or somebody, soon!) does well and finally answers our need for a QB.

by Natalya on Mar 14, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup
It isn't like we have much say in the matter of who they pick. -)
"It all starts with the Dolphins," an executive with another team said Sunday, "and not a single person here has any idea what they're going to do."

by Neo on Mar 14, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do!
Bill called me last night and asked who I thought he should pick.

I'd tell you, but he asked me to keep it confidential.  I WILL say however, that someone already guessed correctly in one of the posts.

;)

by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 14, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two differences though...
Antonio Gates and LT....

Having one of the - if not the - best RB and running game in the NFL - as well as one of the best - if not the best - TE lining up on your side will make most QB's look REALLY good. (Not to say Rivers is not good, but with LT struggling and Gates injured last year, he did struggle a fair bit)

Definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...

by azphinner on Mar 14, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mirrors the Chargers
BTW- this situation in no way mirrors the Chargers. We do not have a quarterback who knows the system (Brees) and a uber-talented diamond in the rough (Gates). We have no receivers. Additionally, our o-line is still suspect.

We are not in the position to draft a quarterback.

Period.

K-

by LKMusician on Mar 14, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was this post necessary?
Sorry but does anyone even think the Dolphins will draft Matt Ryan?  Most experts don't.  Then why such a long post to discredit him?  Why not post on the players that are more likely to be picked?

Just my thought.
#13

by 13FinsFan on Mar 14, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There you go...
hatin' on Ryan again.

:)

by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 14, 2008 10:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
Ryan is a significant enough upgrade over Beck to warrant the huge guarantee a #1 gets.  People are comparing us to the SD Chargers which is a bit premature for a lot of reasons.
I feel Rivers is an average QB, nothing more.  I put Brady, Manning, Palmer, Romo as above average QB's.  Rivers is definitely not in the same category as these players.
Neither Matt Ryan or John Beck will be placed in the top tier of NFL QB's so I really feel like we pass on Ryan because he'll be an average NFL QB and I think we really have one of those in Beck.

by MarkDuper85 on Mar 14, 2008 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ryan grades higher than beck
matt ryan grades out much higher than john beck. most scouts had beck rated as a fourth round pick. i think ryan will be a dolphin next year just not with the first overall pick.

by Judge Dredd on Mar 14, 2008 1:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Puzzle pieces
Look - I think we're all getting the cart before the horse. The problem is the quarterback - IMHO - is one of the last pieces of the puzzle. If you look at the busts, most of them had a bad team around them.

You have to prepare the infrastructure first...and we don't have one. Look at Manning - Harrison was there first. Look at Aikman - Irvin was there first. Even for Palmer - CJ was there first.  Do we have a world class receiver? No. We all should agree that Ginn is not going to be in their class.

The formula is well repeated - you must have a decent offense first, before you throw a good QB in it.

YOU CANNOT BUILD AROUND THEM. You must build o-line and receivers first and then find your fit.

Therefore, our options are only 2: Jake or Chris Long.
We need to get better in the trenches, and select players in the later rounds that complete our secondary, give us wide receivers, and shore up our o-line.

If we select Jake, then we are trying to keep our Ronnie Brown investment growing. It is that simple. We are trying to make our strengths stronger. Ronnie is the ONLY strong point on this team's offense. With Ricky spelling him, Ronnie could be amazing.  We have to build an o-line to get them both running and KEEP THEM healthy.

If we select Chris, then we are rebuilding our dominate defense. We need so much on defense after losing Zach. He is that big of a difference maker - don't kid yourself. Also with Jason still here, and players like Holliday aging, we have to get younger fast.

We need to re-build our infrastructure, and be patient. We've blindly thought we were close for too many years - and we were wrong. Regardless of how we all felt, we were wrong. We have to re-evaluate where we want to be, and in my opinion, neither Long is a wrong choice.

Matt Ryan would be.

Not because he isn't talented, but now is not the time.

K-

by LKMusician on Mar 14, 2008 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Vick a bust? No way
You have got to be kidding me...  Every year Michael Vick was the starter, the team won at least 7 games.  Twice making the playoffs with one visit to the NFC Championship game.  He made 3 pro bowls and ran for the most rushing yards for a QB in one season in NFL history. Has Carson Palmer been to a championship game? NO!  Is he a bust?  No.  Why?  He hasn't won more than Vick but you declare Vick a bust.  Is it cause Vick is black?  Because he is a criminal?  Because he doesn't play quarterback how your father and grandfather likes the position to be played?  He's won more than Carson and it's not because of the team's talent. If Vick had all those receiver's and Rudi Johnson, he would have a ring.  So if Vick's a bust, Carson Palmer is a bust too.  

by marcu01 on Mar 14, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Vick
The only rationale I can say for the Vick being a bust is because he is no longer playing and Palmer is.  Yes, Vick did some great things, but I think if you knew he was going to mess up like this in the pass I would not have taken him with that pick.  He was definitely the saddest story of all these guys.  He had it all and just flushed it away.  But enough with him, I do not think he will be playing any football anytime this decade.

by resman on Mar 14, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup, he's a bust
Talent or no talent:

If you have the sexiest wife in the world, but she screws around on you.....
   SHE'S A BUST!
If you have the greatest singer in the world fronting your band, but he gets strung out on heroin & doesn't show up for a show.....
    HE'S A BUST!
If you pay someone in advance to put the roof back on your house after a tornado & he gets thrown in jail because he took your money, bought some crack from an undercover cop....
    HE'S A BUST!
(By the way, all the above are true life examples from people I know, and they were all white. Just wanted to re-assure everyone of that before the race thing comes in again).
    All the God given gifts, looks, abilities, intangeables, speed, guts, or potential go right down the toilet when the person who has all those gifts, money, responsability & talent piss it away like a total moron.
    Sorry friend, ask Mr. Blank what Vick has done for his team lately. Ask him if he was worth over $100MILLION guarenteed. He showed flashes, was fun to watch, and COULD have been special for a long time, but Mr. Vick IS a COMPLETE bust, and hopefully will serve as a reverse roll model to young NFL players on WHAT NOT to do.

by davehowardcustom on Mar 14, 2008 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I could not have put it better
He is considered a bust because they built their franchise around this guy.  Now they are pretty much as bad (if not worst) than the Fish.  At least we have somewhat of a plan, but his actions wrecked that franchise.  He was their hope for the future and now the Owner is grasping at straws.  It is not a race thing either, he just was plain stupid and deserved everything year of jail time he got.  He should have got more, but plead.  I hope he never plays again, I could not watch someone like that playing football.  What a faker he is.

by resman on Mar 14, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vick
Michael Vick made Mr. Blank whole lot more money than he paid him.  Vick carried his franchise and was the face of the Falcons.  If Blank is upset, its cause his cash cow is gone.  He wasn't a bust for Blank, he made him hundreds of millions.

by marcu01 on Mar 15, 2008 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With all that being said.....
If Parcells thinks Ryan is worthy of the first pick I will support it and Him. I have that much faith in Parcells scouting dept and judgement when it comes to making such a big decision. I honestly dont think we can go wrong with any of the 3 top guys. Ryan,Long or Long. I am trying not to fall in love with any of them to keep from being disappointed on the first pick of the 08 draft. I dont want that to ruin my day :). Its going to be a long weekend and that pick is going to continue what was started in FA. But I do love the different views and rationale for taking one guy over the other. Its good football talk keep it up!!!!

by jvw on Mar 14, 2008 4:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah...
Thanks JVW for getting us back on track.

It has been some very spirited debate, (and sometimes taken WAY too personal & mean spirited by some) though.

I've gone on record saying "My pick" is Jake Long. He could be the next Richmond Webb, and boy do we miss that guy.

I too, will trust whatever these guys decide & support it. And I wouldn't be surpised if they DO pick McFadden or Ryan (like the Chargers did with Eli Manning), just to bang Dallas or Atlanta into an extra pick.

I could see Parcells grabbing McFadden or Ryan and then calling Jerry or Arther & saying, "What's he worth to you?"

That could be interesting, there!

by davehowardcustom on Mar 14, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I definitely favor either Long but if Parcells and Co. take Ryan, or McFadden, or whoever, I'm behind them.  They're the evaluators, not me.

by JMFlyer1454 on Mar 14, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, I too am a Long fellow.
But I think i would take jake and diss chris.

;)

by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 14, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vick Wrecked The Franchise?
If one person can wreck your franchise, then your franchise wasn't that well built to begin with.  The Falcons were flawed.  And the only reason they were winning was because of Michael Vick.  Okay, if your definition of a player that has to be playing means they are not a bust, then the only people on the list who were busts were Shuler and Ryan Leaf.  All the rest played for a considerable amount of time. The definiton of a bust is having a player who was highly selected or invested in and you do not get the production that was invested in him.  Mr. Blank made hundreds of millions of dollars off of Michael Vick.  So did the NFL.  He was the face of the league for a few years.  The next big thing.  Everyone made money off of him so I think Mr. Blank is not as upset as you think.  He nor the NFL lost money off of Vick.  Bobby Petrino bust.  Michael Vick, not a bust.  

by marcu01 on Mar 15, 2008 12:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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