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Looking for a Franchise Receiver? - don't look in Round one


We have all heard about the high "bust rate" of wide-outs and how they are risky picks in the first round.

There is also a lot of discussion here about our #1 need, or certainly a major need, being a Franchise Wide-Out: the next Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald. In short a dynamic play maker who you can depend on for a reasonable amount of time.

Mark Clayton and Mark Duper spring to mind.

So keeping specific prospects out of it, I decided to take a look at just how likely it has been for an NFL team to find a productive wr who stays with the team for more than a few seasons. The answer is not very.

 Of the 31 wrs taken in Round One in the seven drafts from 2000 to 2006 only 10 of them are still with the team that drafted them. You could argue that a one in three average isn't that bad...but it really means you are twice as likely to pick, sign and spend big $$ on a player you will not have in five years than you are of getting a starter, let alone a weapon.

And fire-power is the whole point of taking a wr early. Possession recievers end up in the middle to late rounds. When you spend a first round pick on a "skill position" you are looking for a play-maker and a game-breaker. Of the above mentioned 10...fewer still fall into that category.

 I get: Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Lee Evans, Michael Jenkins, Roddy White and Santonio Holmes

So now we're down to 7 out of 31 or less than .250. Looking at it from the other direction that means that despite the fact that every single one of these players had outstanding college careers (or at least one outstanding year), that they were extensively scouted, tested at the combines, prodded on their pro days and analyzed right down to their DNA,  that 24 times an NFL team chose and gave $millions to a receiver who did not deliver on the promise they thought he had.  

"They weren't who we thought they were!"

Seven years of Wrs in Rd 1. A year by year look.

2000- None of the five wrs taken in the first round of the 2000 draft are still in the NFL. As many busts as the Playboy mansion.

2001 - 6 wrs chosen only two Wayne and Sanata Moss still in the NFL - only Wayne still with his original team.

2002 - 3 wrs - Donte Stallworth, Aslie Lelie and Javon Walker...where are they now?

2003 - 3 wrs - only Andre Johnson is worth mentioning.

2004 - 7 wrs! Larry Fitz, Lee Evans and Michael Jenkins came through on their promise...the rest - meh...anyone remember Rashaun Woods?

Woods finished his college career at Oklahoma State University with 293 receptions, 4,414 yards and 42 touchdowns - all Big 12records. Rashaun was a two time all-american. He became the eighth player in NCAA Division 1-A annals to gain over 1,000 yards receiving in a season three times in a career.

 The 49's probably wish they could forget him....last seen being cut from the Hamilton Tiger-Cats in 2007

 2005 - 6 wrs - only Roddy White looks like a franchise player - the Falcons BTW, are two for two here; we should find out who they like. Mike Clayton is the only other one still with the team which drafted him (Balt) but really a role player and Braylon Edwards is the only other one still with "Franchise" potential - just not in Cleveland.

2006 - Holmes was the only wideout taken in Round One...the jury (figuratively and possibly literally) is still out.

 More recently:

The last three years have brought some good, a couple of great and some yet-to be-determined wrs to the league.

2007 saw 6 wrs, including our own Ted Ginñata. Of the bunch Calvin Johnson is clearly the only one at this point who "are what we thought he were." Bowe and Meachem are good, Gonzalez got hurt and missed his chance to shine last fall and Craig Davis seems to be sinking into the Pacific.

There were no wrs taken in the First Round of the 2008 Draft...NFL GMs were probably shell-shocked at that point.

2009 - too early to tell - 6 wrs taken - Harvin had the biggest impact, Crabtree appears to be as advertised and Heyward-Bey is yet more proof that a stop watch can't take the place of a scouting department.

What this boils down to is if you are looking to spark your offence by picking a wr in Round One it's literally a crap shoot. The odds of rolling 7 are 6 to 30 or 5-1 ...pretty much the same odds as picking the next Calvin Johnson.

No team with Bill Parcells in the front office has ever taken a wr in Round one. I guess he doesn't like the odds.  

This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.

Comment 75 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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i like your post...

but disagree. dez could be great. we dont really know. why not take a shot. high risk high reward

You gotta hate to lose more than you want to win

by alwaysafan on Apr 4, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

it actually sounds like you want to win more than you hate to lose..........

Mr. Phreez makes some very valid points…..

Just one man's opinion...
"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks" - 2009

1-Sergio Kindle, 2-Nate Allen, 3-Torrell Troup, 4-Brandon Spikes

by hwyatt3 on Apr 4, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not saying Dez will not be great

In fact I didn’t mention him at all….but you hit the nail right on the head “high risk – high reward.”

As good as he was – and he was scary good – history suggests the odds are 1 in 3 he’ll stay with the Dolphins for more than 4 years and 1 in 6 that he’ll be the player we’d all hope he can be.

Also that picking him at #12 is running against a long-established trend for the people in our FO. Not saying they won’t but again…long odds

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It isn't just about high risk high reward

It’s more about how high the risk is, relative to the chance of being rewarded. If you basically have a 25% of hitting with an expensive pick, and that pick is already showing signs of being immature and flaky, you really need to figure it into the equation. If you assume the basic probability is 25%, you then multiply that by a suitable % to derive the likelihood of a given player being a bust If you give Bryant a 50% grade after forgetting his cleats, having a so-so pro day, and his various other issues, multiply 25% by 50%, and that leaves you with a 12.5% chance of being right i.e. 1 in 8 Of course, if you gave him a 25% grade, you’d end up with 6.25% – i.e. a 1 in 16 chance of being right. You really need to figure out what basic grade you’d give Bryant, and calculate accordingly. Obviously, you then figure out how much you need to take that gamble, relative to your other needs for the team. Sorry to be all statistical, but it really does give you more of a sense of which gambles are more likely to pay off.

Dez Bryant is not the Messiah - he's just a naughty little boy!

by nickzi on Apr 4, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow! did you really just try to apply percentages to to this

and what are those various other issues you speak of

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, percentages

Not as good as chicken entrails, but fun to try.

Dez Bryant is not the Messiah - he's just a naughty little boy!

by nickzi on Apr 4, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd have to mainline Stephen Hawking for a month

to even begin to follow that.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

simple version

1 in 4 receivers work out = basic 25% at getting a successful one

How likely is Bryant as an individual receiver to succeed(skill, attitude, history etc)
= percentage assessed by you – say, 50%

Then you multiply the first percentage by the second, and you get the chance of Bryant as an individual in a given category (i.e WR) being a success. The only real issue is what % you put on Bryant as an individual.

If you have 12 players on your board for the first round, you do this for each of them, and figure out which ones give you the best chance of picking a winner.

Dez Bryant is not the Messiah - he's just a naughty little boy!

by nickzi on Apr 4, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

and thats why you dont make our draft picks

because if you did we would be in trouble the moment you start putting percentages on individual human beings is when you lost me

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to admit

I’ve never seen flakiness expressed as a variable before.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look, people do this all the time

We make a calculation on our heads as to how likely something is to work out. Putting a percentage on it just lets you rank possibilities. This isn’t unusual or complex at all. Estimating flakiness/efficiency/reliability is pretty standard stuff too.

You have two basic questions here:

1)How likely are WRs taken in the first round to succeed? You gave the basic answer – 25%. One in four, by the stats you provided.

2) How likely is a given individual WR to succeed? This isn’t the same question as 1). So you have to estimate what an individual’s chances are. You can’t just say that Golden Tate has the same chance as Dez Bryant and Demaryius Thomas. Obviously they have different factors coming into consideration – reliability/flakiness, production, experience and so on and so forth. You look at these factors and assign a %.

To get the overall answer you need, which is how likely a given individual is to succeed, if taken as a WR in the 1st round, you have to multiply 1 by 2. Honestly, this isn’t an unusual procedure at all. It’s a standard way of dealing with probabilities.

Dez Bryant is not the Messiah - he's just a naughty little boy!

by nickzi on Apr 4, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theres a difference between analyzing the likelyhood

of an individual succeeding and applying a percentage to a human being based on those same standards. You cant seriously tell me you cant assign an “accurate” percentage on a individuals likelyhood to succeed. if you could what do we need scout for?

You can’t just say that Golden Tate has the same chance as Dez Bryant and Demaryius Thomas.

your right you cant but that at the same time golden tate can become a bust and demaryius thomas can become a perennial pro bowler

and yes applying a percentage to human nature and then trying to multiply it is very unusual

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is not unusual at all, Deuce

How do you think people set the odds for gambling in sport? Those odds are just percentages in another form. 3 to 1 = 75% and so forth. And, for about the third time, you ESTIMATE the percentages. That’s exactly why you need scouts. They bring in information, you know. What did you think was the basis of an estimate? And of course you can’t guarantee that X will be a bust, Y will be a probowler. The point is that you have to minimize your risk, which is why you ESTIMATE what the likelihood is of them busting/working out.

Dez Bryant is not the Messiah - he's just a naughty little boy!

by nickzi on Apr 4, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bruh the odds for gambling in sport

is not placing a percentage on a individual. for example oh the patriots have a 99.9% chance of beating the lions so my money is on the pats.

You on the other hand are trying to “assign” a percentage on a individual. My point is teams arent in the war rooms rating players by percentage the do it by talent and the other factors weigh in on where you draft them.

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

And he is weighing talent on how likely

 a particular WR might be in the NFL. Then putting it into a percentage. the liklihood of something happpening is best put into a ratio or percentage when you’re talking numbers.

The only wisdom is the knowledge that you don't know.
And, as always, screw the JETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by PotM on Apr 4, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice post,

But actually a Parcells led draft room has selected two first round WRs (Terry Glenn and Mark Ingram). You can however give him credit for going two for two.

I also wouldn’t hold out too much on Anthony Gonzalez becoming a franchise receiver. He’s going to be the next Brandon Stokley, for the exact team Stokely made his name with.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah that's true, but even Parcells admits that Glenn wasn't his choice.

Kraft is the one who drafted Glenn. And you can make the argument that without Terry Glenn, the Patriots don’t make the Super Bowl his rookie year. He did lead the team in receptions with 90 (40 more than the 2nd leading receiver) and yards with 1,132.

Let's get offensive this offseason!
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." MACBETH
"Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron." THE DUDE (The Big Lebowski)

by ct1361 on Apr 4, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kraft isn't that type of owner.

He lets his coaches/GMs make those decisions. Why do you think Belichick loves it there?

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was for that pick.

From Wikipedia:

Parcells left the Patriots after disagreements with owner Robert Kraft; Parcells felt he did not have enough input in player personnel decisions. Upon his departure, Parcells famously stated: “If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries.” This was mainly in reference to an incident in the Patriots’ war room during the 1996 Draft where Parcells, who wanted to draft a defensive player with their first-round choice, was vetoed by Kraft, and the Patriots selected Ohio State WR Terry Glenn.

Let's get offensive this offseason!
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." MACBETH
"Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron." THE DUDE (The Big Lebowski)

by ct1361 on Apr 4, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank You ct

Saves me from bringing it up again.

I was very deliberate in my wording because I’ve been through this debate on another thread.

No team with Bill Parcells in the front office has ever taken a wr in Round one. I guess he doesn’t like the odds.

He’s been gm of the Jets, the Cowboys and is Czar of the Dolphins…I’m not counting the Giants – George Young -one of the best gms of all time – drafted Ingram and Kraft picked Glenn

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually by your statement.

The Pats taking Glenn falls into your category, as he was the GM. Whether he picked Glenn or not is irrelevant, cause they picked him while he was a part of the FO.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember the golden rule.

Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

The Pats Front Office was Robert Kraft on that pick. It was a committee of one.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I realize it's just semantics.

But as GM, he was a part of a team’s front office that selected a WR in the first round. That’s all I’m trying to say.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats fair to say that he was there when they picked a WR

But he did NOT want to pick a WR when the pats owner picked Glenn.

Eat, Sleep, Assassinate!!!

by PhinJe Tsak on Apr 8, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Although you see how he’s kept his hands out of the cookie jar since.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd agree with that

It would appear he learned a leason. I’m sure he was shocked that Parcells would leave over being over-ruled. Not much doubt how Belichick would react either.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe if we keep repeating this someday it will finally sink in for everyone.

Let's get offensive this offseason!
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." MACBETH
"Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron." THE DUDE (The Big Lebowski)

by ct1361 on Apr 4, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

parcells didn't draft terry glenn........kraft did and that's what sparked him leaving the pats

and his input on the mark ingram selection is not well founded……..

so……..not sure if your argument has any validity………

Just one man's opinion...
"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks" - 2009

1-Sergio Kindle, 2-Nate Allen, 3-Torrell Troup, 4-Brandon Spikes

by hwyatt3 on Apr 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Glenn is a Parcells guy.

Why do you think he brought him to the Cowboys (as a WR) and the Dolphins (to help during OTA’s).

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not initially.

That’s why he called him “She.”

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same thing with Keyshawn (Although not drafted by Parcells).

Parcells has a special way of dealing with his diva receivers.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The jury aint out on Holmes....

Super Bowl MVP….Stud WR only getting better.

Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 09' / 2-Time 09' Matty Award Winner

by Rzayo24 on Apr 4, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

this^

Just one man's opinion...
"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks" - 2009

1-Sergio Kindle, 2-Nate Allen, 3-Torrell Troup, 4-Brandon Spikes

by hwyatt3 on Apr 4, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Technically they haven't selected the Jury yet.

But if it goes to trial I’m sure there will be one.

I used to think I had a drinking problem.
So I stopped thinking.

by luvs2drnk on Apr 4, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL Good one!

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -Benjamin Franklin
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that."-Steve Earle
Currently one of three pilots for the new and improved SpillWagon fleet of Chinook’s.
"Thank god I seen what was going on before I could finish reading"-Weecho85

by texascowpunk on Apr 4, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

No argument he's off to a good start.

However if he gets sent to jail, or gets suspended, or just loses his edge his current body of work is not enough to cement a “franchise” tag in my book. Hence the jury is still out.

Case in point: David Boston

Here are the first three years of Boston’s Career

Year Tm G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng
1999 ARI 16 8 40 473 11.8 2 43
2000ARI 16 16 71 1156 16.3 7 70
2001ARI 16 16 98 1598 16.3 8 61

Then….a subpar year in ARI a good yr in SD which was enough to convince us we needed him in 2005 – 5 games and 4 catches later…out of football.
 His start was even better than Holmes

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Case in point?

Steelers WR Santonio Holmes Facing Four-Game Suspension

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/4/10/1414282/santonio-holmes-suspension-steelers

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 10, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice post again phrozenphish..........can i call you mr.phreeze?? i like that

well written and easy to read…………keep it up
oh………and yeah………..no wideout in the first for us………or the second……..etc.

i don’t believe a wideout will be selected until the 6th or 7th round if at all………with 3 wide receivers taken in the last 2 drafts (technically 2 because bess was undrafted – but maybe 4 if white is forced to change position….but you know what i’m sayin’) and a carry over from the former staff, in addition to several free agent signings……………we might be done with the position for a while as far as draft selections……..

Just one man's opinion...
"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks" - 2009

1-Sergio Kindle, 2-Nate Allen, 3-Torrell Troup, 4-Brandon Spikes

by hwyatt3 on Apr 4, 2010 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

"They call me MISTA Phish!"

You can call me whatever non-insulting thing you like.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone wants to talk down about selecting a WR

But let’s be honest for a second assume we don’t take Dez we take Dan Williams (for example) the success rate isn’t too kind to DT’s either I’m almost positive that for every position there has been a very big risk doesn’t matter what it is every year theres always players at different positions who are suppose to be the next great thing and some don’t pan out its not just the WR position. I’m not trying to blast anyone I’m just saying that its a crap shoot for each and every player regardless of position (hell even the jets took a K in the 2nd round and look where he’s at) I trust the FO so where ever they decide to go im all for it they’re smart people I got faith in them

"You can do more, you can always do more." - Dan Marino

by Miamiboi84 on Apr 4, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Well Said!

Let's get offensive this offseason!
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." MACBETH
"Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to face the fact you're a goddamn moron." THE DUDE (The Big Lebowski)

by ct1361 on Apr 4, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont really want to pick up Dez but I'll admit

He’s going to be great IMO.

Ted Ginn supporter
There are Smith guys and Vontae guys, I got V.D.
Say no to Boldin, love'm just not in Miami

by okokokaay on Apr 4, 2010 12:31 PM EDT reply actions  

You think he is gonna be great but you dont want him on your team?

Elite WR’s only come around so often so I think you need to take them while you have the chance. Im not sold on Bryant either but if the FO really feels that he will be great, I hope they draft him.

by usualsuspect609 on Apr 4, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heres the thing

you can just place your focus on receivers but in reality every single position drafted period has long odds especially in the first round where your biggest investment is in. There are no sure things quarterbacks, running backs, Tight ends, Defensive lineman, etc. can either be a hit, a miss, or maybe just a solid player.

Remember Glenn Dorsey people said he was probably the best player in the 08’ draft need i say more. Ndamukong Suh has been getting alot of pre-draft praise yet hes no more of a sure thing then Dez Bryant is.

So no matter which position we decide to go with nothing will be certain until they hit the field

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

This is why I hope we dont get Williams...

Everyone says he is the safe choice but Im really not sure hes gonna be a big impact player. I think I would rather us gamble on a player that is a serious upgrade over what we have now. All im saying is nobody really knew who Williams was until the Senior Bowl and it seems all the experts think were gonna go with him since he seems to be the safest pick. I know that Soliai isnt great but is Williams really that much of an upgrade over him? Im thinking we can get a better value NT in the later rounds.

by usualsuspect609 on Apr 4, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

you should actually be scared of williams

because he was a one year wonder, theres nothing safe about that and as far as his impact is concerned he is not a impact player and actually i beleive terrance cody is better than him

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the same thing...

Id rather trade down and pick up Cody if there isnt any other big impact player at our pick. Thats what Im saying about Williams. Hes a one hit wonder and all the experts are sold on the guy. I just dont get it.

by usualsuspect609 on Apr 4, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree

WR’s have a higher bust rate in the first round than just about every position. In the top 15, it gets worse. Of course there are no sure-things at any position, but you have a better chance (percentage-wise) of picking a stud at another position than you do at WR.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Six Career Matty Awards
LN21 and MHTD - Goin Commando
Piloting the Lead Chopper in the CJ "the Thriller" Spiller SpillWagon Helicopter Fleet

by Little Nicky 21 on Apr 4, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bringing up Dorsey is appropriate.

As I believe DT’s have an even higher Bust Rate than wrs.

Yes the first round is a crap shoot….I just wanted to investigate exactly how much of one when looking at wrs.

I’m not suggesting anyone is a better bet than anyone else.

What I think this does prove is based on history alone, in a vacuum, the odds of Dez Bryant making the NFL and staying with the team that drafts him for at least five years are 1 in 3. The odds of him becoming the player you believe he will be and staying with the team that drafts him are 1 in 6.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

yea i understood the focus of your post

but i just wanted to shed a light that there are no sure things

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

No worries and I agree with you on Williams

His body of work doesn’t support where he’s being projected. You’d be gambling on one year and combine numbers….can you say “Mike Mamula?”

At least with Cody you can count on him filling both “A” gaps…as long as he keeps going to Denny’s

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol true

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

they don't

they do bust more often than QB’s though.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Six Career Matty Awards
LN21 and MHTD - Goin Commando
Piloting the Lead Chopper in the CJ "the Thriller" Spiller SpillWagon Helicopter Fleet

by Little Nicky 21 on Apr 4, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm so far off the point of the post here dude

I was saying that DT’s bust more often than QB’s

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Six Career Matty Awards
LN21 and MHTD - Goin Commando
Piloting the Lead Chopper in the CJ "the Thriller" Spiller SpillWagon Helicopter Fleet

by Little Nicky 21 on Apr 4, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are actually some pretty good

Receivers in the 2nd and 3rd round, so maybe we could pick up one with a mid round pick.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by Topher Doll on Apr 4, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions  

nice post

favorite quote in the whole thing

yet more proof that a stop watch can’t take the place of a scouting department.

that is well said lol

and WR’s have I believe the highest bust rate of any position in the first round. Bottom line, I’m not betting against the odds when it comes to Dez Bryant. A guy with shitty work ethic isn’t the guy that’s gonna buck the trend, sorry.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Six Career Matty Awards
LN21 and MHTD - Goin Commando
Piloting the Lead Chopper in the CJ "the Thriller" Spiller SpillWagon Helicopter Fleet

by Little Nicky 21 on Apr 4, 2010 4:12 PM EDT reply actions  

what exactly do you knwo about his work ethic?

you can say hes immature needs guidance maybe a little organization but you dont know his work ethic.

If you knew Dez has been training in florida since january for the combine you wouldnt say that

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

*know

Momma Said Knock You Out

by Deuce Black on Apr 4, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

At this point I'd like to refer all our passengers

to the various spirited debates about Dez Bryant located throughout this blog:

http://www.thephinsider.com/2010/4/2/1402908/the-official-dez-bryant-bandwagon

http://www.thephinsider.com/2010/4/2/1402806/bryant-will-be-best-player-to

http://www.thephinsider.com/2010/4/3/1403831/brandon-marshall-common

In the case of an emergency air bags will drop down from above you. Deep breaths.

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 4, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's what I know

He had MONTHS to prepare for his pro day, and showed up unprepared and looked like he didn’t care. Anything else you need to know?

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Six Career Matty Awards
LN21 and MHTD - Goin Commando
Piloting the Lead Chopper in the CJ "the Thriller" Spiller SpillWagon Helicopter Fleet

by Little Nicky 21 on Apr 4, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

THIS ^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just think how stupid the average Jest fan is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! ( a parody of a George Carlin line)

Attorney General of the Matty I Fan Club
Engineer of the Sign Dansby and JT Train!

by PhinsTifosi on Apr 4, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

^^^^ this

Henne is the QB of the Miami Dolphins.
Hartline made me proud! Kid has "quality" & "heart" written all over him.
We need this pass D to STEP THE F UP and do what they get paid to do!
Brandon Marshall or Dwayne Bowe please.. please?

by jdtman on Apr 5, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still want Dez

2009 NY Phin PhansFantasy League Champion
2009 Best Regular Season Record in NYPPL.
2010 The Jim Mandich NewsFlash Award Winner.

by Patssuck456 on Apr 4, 2010 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post and rec'd for those who think we should take Bryant at #12 !!

Henne is the QB of the Miami Dolphins.
Hartline made me proud! Kid has "quality" & "heart" written all over him.
We need this pass D to STEP THE F UP and do what they get paid to do!
Brandon Marshall or Dwayne Bowe please.. please?

by jdtman on Apr 4, 2010 10:21 PM EDT reply actions  

GREAT POST. So what about Brandon Marshall?????

He is a PROVEN #1. The way I look at it is as follows. Kyle Orton and J Cutler both had better years when they were with DENVER!!! We still need a no. 1 receiver! That is the reason why someone like Brandon Marshall should be considered. Recently I heard a rumor that the Phins may trade down to Dallas spot and then trade for Marshall.

BTW. Henne had pretty good 1st yr numbers throwing to basically nobody with Ronnie Brown injured! Not that I don’t think Devonne Bess is a great slot receiver. We just need one of those big throw it near them guys who can win 80% of the one on one battles!!!

by DAVEBUCK on Apr 5, 2010 8:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Marshall would look great in Aqua

Absolutely he’d be the type of player we’re talking about here – on the field. The issue with him, and it’s being hotly debated elsewhere is he is also not without some risk.

Trading for a franchise wr makes a lot of sense…let some other team take a risk and develop them then buy (essentially) the finished product….we did that with Warfield and with Fryar.

Marshall’s issues in Den have him in a unique position. He’s really good and they don’t want him. It’s rare a guy as good and young as he is is available…I suspect – asuming the FO is comfortable with BM in the first place – we’d have to come up with a better offer than Seattle.

Free agency is another option…it’s like a tade were the terms are non-negotiable. Miles Austin springs to mind.

In both cases it’s a question of how much are you willing to give up?

Studying Marino Biology
The squeaky wheel route gets the Griese
This Kootchenberg isn't big enough for the both of us.
Favourite book: The Art of Warfield
Owner of the Running Shulas
Looking for a trailer hitch for my Bokamper.

by PhrozenPhish on Apr 5, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

BM might look good in aqua, but I am willing to bet that before too long he is gonna find out if he looks good in orange or stripes

and be introduced to Ben & Eileen Dover.

At least his initials are descriptive of him!

If a man will hit a woman, he will hit a child. PERIOD.

Just think how stupid the average Jest fan is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! ( a parody of a George Carlin line)

Attorney General of the Matty I Fan Club
Engineer of the Sign Dansby and JT Train!

by PhinsTifosi on Apr 5, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope we dont get WR at #12

I totally agree with the title of this post in this year’s draft.

I know alot of people are hoping that Dez Bryant comes to Miami as the big physical WR we have been praying for for years. All i know is that people forget that their favorite teams are also a BUSINESS and I find it hard that any business owner would give millions of guarenteed dollars to someone who might not even have their heart in it. Especially Parcells and our FO. We are not risktakers; look for us to get a smart safe pick and we will probably be grateful down the road.

If I was going to put money on it, I’d say that Benn will be the best WR in this class and some team will get a steal in round 2. Will it be us?

Laces out!

-2008 AFC East Champions-
Suck it Pats, Bills and most of all... the god damn jets.

Sean Smith/Vontae Davis= Pat Surtain/Sam Madison

by BSerious72 on Apr 8, 2010 3:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting that most people (on Mexican’s fan post) had WR as one of the lowest positions of draft priority……….

by samalex on Apr 8, 2010 5:00 AM EDT reply actions  

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