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Weekend Roundup: Talking Jake Grove, Eric Green, Matt Roth & more

We're now less than three weeks away from the kickoff of training camp - and actually having real news to discuss.  But until then, we need to pass the time.  So our 2009 "Training Camp Primers" will continue this week - spurring what I hope will be some discussion/debate.

And below are some little nuggets from this past weekend.

SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS BY KC JOYNER
ESPN's K.C. Joyner, known as "The Football Scientist" thanks to his statistical breakdowns, recently shared some of his data from 2008 with the Miami Herald.  Allow me to point out the highlights.

First off, Joyner again highlights the upgrade from Samson Satele to Jake Grove.  He talked about it more in-depth in this post back in April.  The bottom line?  Grove won 90.6% of his "point-of-attack" blocks and those runs averaged 6.2 yards-per-carry last season in Oakland.  He also only allowed 1.5 sacks last year - and both were "coverage sacks" according to Joyner.

However, Joyner clearly isn't a fan of the Eric Green signing.  Green was seen getting beat often during OTAs and minicamp this offseason.  And, apparently, that is what Green is best at:

Good thing Miami drafted two cornerbacks high because free agent pickup Eric Green's numbers aren't pretty. With the Dolphins in '08, Andre' Goodman, who's now with Denver, was successful (incompletion or offensive interference) on 52.4 percent of the passes thrown against him, ranking 16th of 98 cornerbacks rated. Green, with Arizona last year, had a success rate of 41.2 percent, ranking 61st -- worse than even Jason Allen (55th, 42.4 percent). And the 9.3 yards per attempt against Green ranked 88th of 98. Ugh.

For some time now, many Dolphin fans have been vocal in disliking the signing of Green - myself included.  And I'm sure all Dolphin fans will be pulling for him - obviously.  But there isn't too much encouraging news regarding Green.  We know that the Dolphins signed Green after watching his '07 tape - not his '08.  Supposedly, Green was playing through some injuries last year - which may have led to his poor play.  But even still, he hasn't looked much better this offseason, according to most practice reports.

Meanwhile, Joyner isn't impressed with Joey Porter's run defense.  Luckily, strongside linebacker Matt Roth excels against the run:

Exceptional as a pass-rusher (17.5 sacks), Porter was by far Miami's worst starting linebacker against the run in '08. On 100 runs in Porter's direction, he had nine wins (9 percent success rate), with those runs averaging 5.4 yards.

Matt Roth was Miami's best linebacker against the run (24.6 percent success rate, allowed 3.5 yards per rush) -- more reason why he figures to play on traditional run downs ahead of Jason Taylor (13 percent, 4.4 yards per rush with Washington). Taylor's metrics were ''not very good, but better than Porter's,'' Joyner said.

This is just more proof of two things.  One - I was dead wrong about what I called the "Matt Roth experiment" last offseason.  I didn't think it had a chance to succeed.  But as it turns out, Roth is becoming a very good strongside linebacker.

And two - Roth is going to remain Miami's starter - even with Jason Taylor returning to Miami.  Having Taylor and Porter as the team's outside linebackers on first down would severely hinder the defense's ability to stop the run.

Having dropped another ten pounds from last year, Roth should be even better suited to play his SOLB position in 2009.

Star-divide

QUICK HITS
-Barry Jackson also writes in his Miami Herald article that offensive coordinator Dan Henning has added "interesting wrinkles" to the offense.  According to "one Dolphins player," there are plays with Pat White going in motion and lining up behind Chad Pennington.  And this is just what is leaking out.  I can only imagine what Henning and David Lee are coming up with behind closed doors.

-Jason Taylor believes that Cameron Wake will be a good player in this league.  But I'm not 100% sold.  I don't care what he did in the CFL.  That's not the NFL.  You only have 3 downs - not 4 - in the CFL.  So teams pass much more - meaning there are more opportunities for sacks.  And I've watched a number of CFL games - and the offensive line talent is nowhere near what Wake will face in the NFL.  Yes - his numbers were ridiculous in the CFL.  But that doesn't necessarily mean they'll translate to NFL success.  It'll be interesting to see how he does when he hits the field for preseason action.

-Dave Hyde wrote an excellent piece about former Dolphins RB Cecil Collins.  Collins has three years left in prison and, once he gets out, he'd like to work with kids - tell them of his tale and ensure they don't go down the same path.  Best off all, he seems like a changed man.  I hope for the best for Cecil "The Diesel."

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The wildcat 'tude is going to infect the Defense

I got a fever,and the only prescription is more Defense!

Larry Little and I both wore 66 in our football careers. I think that means something.

LOL, LOL, LOL, get your adverbs here!

by Tunaflipper on Jul 13, 2009 12:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hahaha....

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell baby!!!!

by scbrandon on Jul 13, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like the move but id rather we cud have kept satele

grove is injury prone and there is big drop in talent lvl if he gets injured

"That buck that bought a bottle, coulda struck to lotto"- Nas

by Davone_Is_BessT on Jul 13, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Satele's metrics are right in the article I link to

Satele won 79.5% of his “point-of-attack” blocks and the team gained 5.4 yards per carry.

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In response to your Cameron Wake argument, let me ask you this:

Do you think the level of competition in the CFL is greater, less, or equal to that of the NCAA? If it’s greater or equal, then Cameron Wake’s domination in the CFL should have you drooling in anticipation of his NFL development.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jul 13, 2009 12:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Does it matter?

 He has “NFL” coaching,“NFL” player support, and a reason to prove himself.

Larry Little and I both wore 66 in our football careers. I think that means something.

LOL, LOL, LOL, get your adverbs here!

by Tunaflipper on Jul 13, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That...

and a $1M guaranteed (look/see) from Miami’s FO with half of the league checking him out as well. Regardless of competition comparisons between college and the CFL, Wake has drawn the attention of the NFL talent scouts.

'Any time you try to win everything, you must be willing to lose everything.'
Larry Csonka

by OntheGo on Jul 13, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you may have misinterpreted me,

I am not saying that he is a guarantee, nor am I saying the opposite, I am saying he deserves the same kind of excitement and expectations that a top NCAA prospect would receive.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jul 13, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know.

You can’t compare the CFL to college. Now if you want to ask me if I think the SEC conference is better than the CFL teams, I’d say possibly. But comparing “college” in the general sense to the CFL won’t work cus some college teams are putrid.

But the biggest issue is how he gets more opportunities to rush the passer because CFL teams throw more.

Look, I’m not saying Wake isn’t going to produce. But I get the feeling some people are expecting double digit sacks from him year in and year out right from day one. And that simply isn’t going to happen.

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

most of us would love to see a 15 sack season from wake...

i predict half of that……..7.5 sacks………with taylor and porter commanding attention and what im hoping will be even a better push than last year from bookends langford and merling…….wake may be the beneficiary of some advantageous plays……..

Just one man's opinion...

"mark my words...we will draft 2 corners within the first 4 picks", hwyatt3 said with confidence prior to the draft
Projection: White and Turner - each will have at least 3 to 5 TD's this year...watch!

by hwyatt3 on Jul 13, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

7.5 sack season from Wake...

Would be pretty awesome IMO!!!

GEtSICK 4 JC

by GEtSICK13 on Jul 13, 2009 11:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be happy if Wake...

can pick up what the FO thought they would get out of either Anderson or Moses last year. Both were disappointing from the beginning of the season, with Anderson making a couple good plays near the end of the year, so if he can add production that was missing last year from either of those two, great.

by Cokes_03 on Jul 13, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will say 5 sacks this year

Wake could be solid and will contribute!
Doble digits sacks is moronic to think off!

I will see the Dolphins win a SUPER BOWL before i die(22 years and counting)

by Aleta on Jul 13, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we are saying the same thing.

I think of Cameron Wake as having been just drafted. You don’t expect double digits from a kid fresh out of the NCAA in his first year in the NFL, why would you do the same for Wake? Expecting massive results is only going to lead to disappointment, though I do think he will be a monster in 2010/2011.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jul 13, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that is your take on Wake, (lol poet and don't knopw it)

then it should also be your take on ALL our rookies, he has much more experiance then them, he has played pro ball, he is a man now, not just fresh out of college, and the CFL has plenty of stars from the SEC, do you think they join a pro league and get worse?

But I get the feeling some people are expecting double digit sacks from him year in and year out right from day one. And that simply isn’t going to happen.
And shouldn’t we reserve judgement till we see them in pads?

IMO, he is the one guy we should have more hope for, because of the reasons I stated above, I’m not going to predict anything, yet, but I do think he will make an immediate impact.

The reason why everyone including team mates thinks he will do well is because he has more then enough talent, and they see what we can’t, he has the drive, you combine those two things, thats called a can’t miss prospect, IMO.

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good old Cecil the Diesel.

Current Phinsider Feud Points: 23

by Patssuck456 on Jul 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice Summary

I have been a big fan of the Grove move from the beginning. I reserve the “injury prone” label until I see him play this season. Most cases of players being “injury prone” tend to come from something they are doing wrong… poor conditioning; good player on a poor team trying to play beyond his abilities, etc. I suspect Jake will be fine with a solid line around him, and well defined and executed scheme.
I also think mostly everyone around here has been on the same page about Roth. He should be the starter, with JT adding pass rush “wrinkles” to the D.

G-g-g-reen? G-Green? Let’s hope we don’t have to rely on GREEN. Here’s the thing. I re-watched the entire Jets-Fins game yesterday, and Goodman made a few nice plays. R. Hill blew a couple and made a couple. But overall, Bell and W. Allen were the guys making the plays in the secondary on D, and they are still here. So with the new kids on the block, I can’t help but believe we are already better… before the rookies even get to camp. Wilson has got to be an upgrade over Hill, and Goodman is solid, but mostly unspectacular. So Green? i see him as similar to us bringing over Goodman from Detroit. A guy with talent, but who has not had the consistency on a team to properly develop that talent. So, he won’t get a better opportunity to develop that right here, right now. If he steps up, great. If not, i still think our secondary will be better than last year, and the improved pass rush should make them look even better.

Wake? He will succeed. He seems to have the drive, so even if his talent is average for the NFL at his position, the drive is what makes mediocre players good, and good players great. He may not be the sack specialist he was in the CFL, but i believe he will make the team as a solid contributor, at least.

as always, IMO.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on Jul 13, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Here here!

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jul 13, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is far from avg talent Lefty,

Haven’t you heard his team mates gushing over his abilities? Strong as a DE and as fast as a DB.

He is arguably the most physically talented LB in the NFL, and that is not my opinion, that is a fact.

His nic name in the great white north was “The Athletic Freak”, and now we’re finding out why.

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

really?

He is arguably the most physically talented LB in the NFL, and that is not my opinion, that is a fact.

Please show me how this is “fact.” Clearly, that statement by you is 100% “opinion.”

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because he is among the strongest and fastest at his position,

sorry but it’s not rocket science, when you are that big, that strong and that fast, that is as physically talented as it gets, IDK am I missing something?

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh - in that case...

….Vernon Gholston is also arguably the most physically talented LB in the NFL.

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no. patrick willis is better.

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jul 13, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he could be,

but he is behind Wake, Wake clocked a 4.49 40 in Canada, and it has been seen here, when it was reported he out ran DBs on ST coverage, and when Grove(among others) mentioned how strong he was he actually shook his head when he said it, like he couldn’t believe it even though he had seen it.

But being physically gifted doesn’t guarantee anything, we’ve seen that enough, but what I said was,

He is arguably the most physically talented LB in the NFL, and that is not my opinion, that is a fact.
and I stand by it.

What I’d like to know is what your point is, am I lying? Is he not that physically gifted? So I’ll say it again, am I missing something?

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to argue about this anymore.

But here’s my final thought. Forget about Canada. We don’t know anything about the conditions of his supposed 40 time. We don’t know the track surface, the timing mechanism, etc…

At the Combine, though, Wake ran a 4.65 40 and benched 225 pounds 20 times (link). Good numbers? sure. But hardly the most “physically gifted LB in the NFL.”

So no – that is not a factual statement. It is your opinion.

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well the only fair and unbias measure we have of speed and strength is at the Combine.

And – just like Cameron did – other NFL linebackers could have gotten faster and stronger since they were timed at the Combine.

So, again, we have no idea if Wake is the mos “physically talented” linebacker in the NFL – which again is proof that your statement was not a fact, but rather was opinion.

You need to be able to quantify facts with actual evidence. Can you quantify your statement?

by Matty I on Jul 14, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weren't the clocks malfunctioning at the combine this year?

Does that not shed a bit of doubt onto previous years?

In finster’s defense, he said arguably the most physically talented LB in the NFL and then supported his case by using CFL 40 times and anecdotal evidence from Jake Grove. Is that not an argument?

It is possible to run faster than your combine 40 time, and considering he is outrunning DBs that kind of says he is able to move faster than 4.65. If he benched 225 pounds 20 times FOUR YEARS ago, don’t you think he has had plenty of opportunity to improve upon that?

Finster said he was arguably the most physically talented, and then he made a decent argument. I see nothing wrong with that.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jul 14, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we can agree he is ONE of the most physically gifted LBs in the NFL and leave it at that. The comments coming out of camp have been unusually positive in this respect, after all.

by icerob on Jul 14, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I admit I’m counting him as a the equivalent of a 1st day pick myself. And even though he has more experience than typical rookies, there will be a period of adjustment. I’d say one year, as it’s 2 for most players.

by icerob on Jul 14, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bo jackson was the most physicall gifted runner of all time. no quantifiable stats but it is a fact

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jul 14, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

Cus others might say Barry Sanders or Walter Payton was.

Hence – it’s not a fact.

by Matty I on Jul 14, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ricky williams was the league's most dominant runningback in the 2001 season

FACT!

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jul 15, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

actually – not fact

Unless you are a big fan of his 1200 yard, 6 touchdown season in New Orleans.

by Matty I on Jul 15, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just making sure you are attentive

Ricky Williams was the league’s most dominant runningback in the 2002 season

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jul 15, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

Let’s play “make Matty mad”, shall we?

by icerob on Jul 15, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a bit of a bone to pick with Joyner,

how can you rate a LBs success rate without including the lineman that play in front of him, don’t Holliday and Merling share that ranking with Porter, and Langford and Starks share with Roth?

It’s the ultimate team sport, nobody can do anything in this sport without their team mates, from the holder to the punter, I don’t care, you won’t be successful unless your team mates do their jobs well.

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Really?

What if it is because the lineman miss their assignments on one side more then the other?

by uncle finster on Jul 13, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Porter still has to win more than 9% of the time.

That “win percentage” is about Porter going one-on-one with a blocker. Whether that blocker should be in Porter’s face or not, he is and Joey has to get off the block more than 9% of the time.

by Matty I on Jul 13, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Cecil the Diesel

Im hoping for a comeback… I remember him balling in the preseason…
Plus if he returns, I can stop using that signed card of him…. as a coaster for my beer.

Laces out!

-2008 AFC East Champions-
Suck it Pats, Bills and most of all... the god damn jets.

Supporter of the Bash Brothers- Wilson and Bell.

by BSerious72 on Jul 13, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey Matty,

That’s BIG of you to admit you were wrong about Roth. I was wrong about Pennington last year, myself. The bottom line is that we now have a bad-ass team to root for this year, its going to be fun. I’m getting a new TV just to watch my Dolphins this year because there’s not much else to watch in the fall.

Eric Green will be a decent back-up and special teams player not much else. Vontae Davis is the starter.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on Jul 14, 2009 12:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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