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3 Up and 3 Down

It's time to once again go "three up and three down" with the Miami Dolphins.  This is our weekly offseason Thursday feature, where I'll simply ask a question about the Dolphins, give three positive answers and three negative answers of some sort, and then open up the floor to all of you for your thoughts.

This week, I want to touch on players who might break out and players who might take a step back.

THREE BREAKOUT PLAYERS IN 2009

1. Ted Ginn Jr - Yesterday I wrote an in-depth piece about Ted Ginn and what we hope to see from him in 2009.  In a nut shell, this will be Teddy's 3rd season in the league and it's now time for him to step his game up and become a "go-to" receiver.  He has the physical tools to do it.  He just needed to catch up to the mental aspects of playing receiver in the NFL.  Perhaps Ginn's learning disability has slowed Ted's development as an NFL receiver.  And if that is the case, we shouldn't be at all concerned considering he's overcome that in school to post terrific grades as a student.  Tony Sparano has also made it a point to talk about how much Ginn has improved this offseason, referring to Ginn as "dominant" at times in practice.  Let's hope this translates to "dominance" in actual games.

2. Matt Roth - Roth will be entering his second season as a strongside outside linebacker for the Dolphins after converting from the defensive end position.  He developed very well last year as the season progressed, becoming the Dolphins' top run-defending linebacker.  And that was despite playing the year with an injured groin.  But he's had that taken care of and feels fully healthy.  He's also more confident entering year two as a linebacker and has veterans like Joey Porter and Jason Taylor to lean on for advice.  While I don't think Roth's sack numbers will dramatically improve from the five he recorded last year (because he won't be asked to rush the passer as much this year), I think we'll see a better Roth in terms of coverage and there's no reason to expect anything but improvement as a run-stopper - something he was already effective at last year.

3. Channing Crowder - It's rare that a player who was drafted in the 3rd round of the draft but has already recorded two 100 tackle seasons in his first four years gets as scrutinized as Channing has been.  But despite his solid play, Crowder hasn't produced many of those critical "game-changing" plays that fans want to see from their star inside linebacker.  Through his first four years, Crowder has recorded just 1.5 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, and 3 fumble recoveries.  He also still has a tendency to run himself out of plays by taking bad angles - though that wasn't as much of a problem last year.  But I don't think it's a coincidence that the one game Crowder missed in 2008, the Chiefs ran for 180 yards on just 21 carries and scored 31 points.  In that game, Miami's inside linebackers combined for just 4 tackles.  I'm looking for Crowder to have a very big 2009 season - making those plays that he historically hasn't made too often in the past.

Star-divide

THREE PLAYERS WHO MIGHT TAKE A STEP BACK IN 2009

1. Joey Porter - It's not common for a linebacker to have a career year at the age of 31.  But that's exactly what Porter did in 2008 - setting a career high in sacks with 17.5.  But Porter wore down as the season dragged on and he only picked up 1 sack and 4 tackles in the final 3 regular season games.  With the return of Jason Taylor to Miami and the signing of Cameron Wake, Porter won't be asked to do as much as he had to last year.  While I think Porter will be more effective in terms of efficiency in 2008, I don't think Joey will put up the kind of numbers he put up last season.

2. Greg Camarillo - This one is really a no-brainer.  Camarillo was having a career year last season before going down with that torn ACL in November against the Pats.  He was on pace for an 80 reception, 900 yard season.  Though his rehab seems to be going as well as can be right now, I just think it's too much to ask for Greg to come back and instantly be his old self on the field in 2009.  Ronnie Brown was good last year following his torn ACL - but was far from the player we saw in 2007 before his injury.  I expect a similar step back from Camarillo in '09.

3. David Martin - In 2008, Martin quietly had a very solid season as Miami's #2 tight end.  He posted a career high in receiving yards (450) and tied his career mark for touchdowns (3).  But numbers don't tell the whole story for Martin's 2008 season.  He made a number of big catches as the season wore on and looked like a completely different player than we saw in 2007.  However, Martin has not been participating in OTAs while he recovers from a sports hernia.  Meanwhile, the Dolphins are said to be high on Joey Haynos and spent a 5th round draft pick on Monmouth TE John Nalbone.  Martin is also a free agent following the year (one of three free agent TEs the Dolphins will have).  So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Fins slowly fazed Martin out of the offense - especially of Haynos and Nalbone show that they can be solid compliments to starter Anthony Fasano.

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Im not really feeling Roth

i like having him…hes solid. but he is the guy that i would say loses the most snaps to JT..no? i think hell be ok…but wont “breakout”.

Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009 / 2 Time Matty Award winner
Author of "ITM"....the original forefather to CKC
Epic 09' Predictions - JT comeback player of yr / Ronnie Brown 1500 yards
Creator and Co-Host of the "Phinsider Feud" Gameshow!!!
Driver of the Trade Dan "Automatic Out, E-4" Uggla

by Rzayo24 on Jun 4, 2009 12:20 AM EDT reply actions  

There's so much Roth hatred around.

It seems as though he’s the likely player to “not really feel…” Its almost as annoying as the Ted Ginn Hatred. RZ, I’m not saying that you’re a hater, but why wouldn’t he “break-out?” He has an off-season to slim down, and refine his skills even more. I don’t see how he can’t improve significantly if he’s out there all year.

I expect that the whole defense will improve quite a bit because I expect the scheme to be a bit more aggressive. That’s why they brought in Wilson as a safety and the big corners. I think the whole defense will “break-out.” That’s what I think, anyways.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on Jun 4, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

good point

i forgot to mention he has slimmed down 10 pounds.

The Phinsider: SBN's Miami Dolphins blog
36.5 "Phinsider Feud" points!!

by Matty I on Jun 4, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

uhh yea not a "hater" of a guy i hope has 300 sacks this yr

just saying i dont see him “breaking out”….because i dont see him getting starter playing time…just splitting.

i think he will do well.

Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009 / 2 Time Matty Award winner
Author of "ITM"....the original forefather to CKC
Epic 09' Predictions - JT comeback player of yr / Ronnie Brown 1500 yards
Creator and Co-Host of the "Phinsider Feud" Gameshow!!!
Driver of the Trade Dan "Automatic Out, E-4" Uggla

by Rzayo24 on Jun 4, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

i thought at the end of the year – he was the best playmaker in the lb corps. his run defense was so good, the last few weeks, teams just stopped running to his side. granted his coverage needs to improve, but his ability to stop the run, certainly trumps that…

my guess for this season is that roth will play full time and will move to DE on passing downs with JT sliding in besides him, since langford really had issues getting any push over the last half of the year.

From Merriam-Webster the meaning of gay
1 a: happily excited : merry b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits

by W NY Fins Fan on Jun 4, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

100% agree

Roth is going to be a part time player no way he has a break out season. Solid run stopper and nothing more.

by ct1361 on Jun 4, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Crowder's chance to break out was last year...

I don’t see Crowder being anymore productive than he was last year, and that’s not saying much. As for a 3rd rounder or later having 100+ tackles two of his first 4 years being rare….. Lance Briggs, Ted Bruschi, Donnie Edwards, London Fletcher, Zach Thomas, and Kirk Morrison all did it as well just to name a few. I think Ginn could have a decent year if either Hartline or Turner can prove to be threats. Porter’s success hinges on how well Taylor and Wake play, and the continued development of Merling and Langford. If they prove ineffective, teams will slide protection Porters way. But if Taylor returns to form, Wake shows he can have the same success in the NFL that he did in the CFL, and Langford and Merling show dominance on the line…..Porter could be in for an even better year.

by luvs2drnk on Jun 4, 2009 4:43 AM EDT reply actions  

You just mentioned a bunch of big names.

Don’t you think that kind of contradicts your point?

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

Because they were all drafted in the 3rd round or later, meaning they weren’t big names when they were drafted. They earned the recognition with their play. Now I could have gone further back and thrown some names at you that you might not have known, but my point was just to highlight that it’s not that rare for 3rd rounders or later to have had similar or better stats.

by luvs2drnk on Jun 5, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd to throw Eric Green in the mix for breakout!

He received a great deal of critiscm for not playing up to potential and loosing his starting job, etc etc.

What I did learn was that he and his wife lost a baby last year and that played heavily on his mind. He was not right in the head by any means last year. For that, and it’s huge, I give his recent preformance a pass.

Then I heard Rod Hood being interviewed and he raved about Green’s ability and even went on to say he was a steal for Miami and he will start and be great. He made it very clear, without saying it, that Green was Arizona’s best corner with even more upside than Cromartie.

I hope he’s right!

"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado

08-09 No Award Winner

by NJDolphan68 on Jun 4, 2009 8:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Holy shit, that's terrible!

If this is true, how could he be hated on by Arizona? Arizona fans may be among the stupidest in the NFL.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously...

I felt so bad for this guy, and for as much as I want to bite Tyson’s nostil off, I feel awful for him too. I have a 3 yr old and couldn’t imagine the devistation.

With a clear head, we might have a real gem in Green!

Arizona fans are as irrelevant as wherever Favre plays next..

"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado

08-09 No Award Winner

by NJDolphan68 on Jun 4, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

nostil= nostril

"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado

08-09 No Award Winner

by NJDolphan68 on Jun 4, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

All of them...

will mostly likely be solid, and that is what is to be hoped for this coming year, not spectacular, but rock solid ’safe-pair-of-hands consistency. The stars will emerge, the over-achievers will get there shots. But the guys above will be asked to produce.

We should not ask Ginn to be that all-star hero. He can and will produce – not his fault he was taken with his family at #9.

I agree that Martin’s star will fade by mid-season as Nalbone starts to ‘get it’ and ‘Haystack-Haynos’ develops his routes and hands to a high consistency.

scored ZERO in draft predictions - I suck -

by Corroncho on Jun 4, 2009 8:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Roth busts his ass when he plays!!

Great guy and team player!…come on!

"You are the people you hang out with"

by buckeyebill on Jun 4, 2009 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

I think Martin might very well be a goner

I wouldnt be suprised if we started shoping him not long into the season

Can't stop to save my soul
I take the leash that's leading me
I'm bleeding me, whoa!

by Patssuck456 on Jun 4, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

I just can’t figure out what they plan to do with Haynos and/or Nalbone. On one hand Martin was very productive last year but he’s old and in a contract year. I would be surprised to see them just get rid of Martin because I don’t see another team rushing in to steal Nalbone from the practice squad. Haynos looks like a keeper though.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on Jun 4, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

if all of our TEs stay healthy during preseason, i can see them shopping Martin to a team that might have TE problems for a 6th or 7th.

Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions

by Phintastic on Jun 4, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

and that thought really saddens me. When it comes to receiving, David Martin has more balls than anybody on the team except maybe Patrick Cobbs. He will be a great mentor, but it’s hard to keep 4 TEs when we’re overstocked in WRs.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Like Ginn

I never knew he had a learning disorder. For him to come over that and be playing in the NFL is amazing. I hope he does great this year and that we keep him.

MIAMI IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE NUMBER 1 BABY

by dolphanforever on Jun 4, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

IMO Ronnie Brown will breakout in 09

The O-line is finally coming together and he’s in great shape coming off of his knee injury. Not to mention he will have something to prove if he hopes to get re-signed to a long-term extension.

by fins72marino420 on Jun 4, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree if...

He can learn to consistently run through the line of scrimmage full burst, and not try to stop and go past the first line of defenders. When he runs through with decisiveness, he gets big yards even before the knee injury he ran the same. Mainly because he hasn’t had a solid O-line to block well. now with a solid line he needs to pick his holes to go through and not change his mind after he gets the ball!

by IEphinfan23 on Jun 4, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

we need to define "break out" ...because there's a difference between "improve" or "become better" and "break out"

because not just this post. but there’s tons that say “_______ will break out” what does that even mean?
"

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jun 4, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions  

It's not difficult to figure out..........

……. it’s like this dude……

29 "Phinsider Fued" Points..!!
(1/2 in the 29 "Phinsider Fued" Points for slapping with "That's What She Said")

by Alpha6 on Jun 4, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

then that causes a conflict. how would you define it? to me ..."break out" means to strive above the normal, or anticipated, development and improve so greatly that it seems as if you have reached a new plateau

and is roth? crowder? going to do that? they’ll improve…but would you go as far and say they will “break out”

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jun 4, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually get your point...

… and it’s a very valid one. Like Matty said tho, it is open to our own interpretation, and yours is difficult to argue against.

Basically, to excel. To go from a good player to a great one. I also think (dare I say), like Rz said, that opportunity plays a big part in “braking out”. But at the same time, can one make the most of those opportunities, no matter the quantity of them.

We also have a standard for most positions on the team. Marino, Zach, Czonka, JT just on this team, so one can compare to what “excellent” is.

Crowder? Seems he’s destined to be good, maybe a little above good, but not great. Roth? I think he has a better opportunity and should “excel”. Ronnie Brown? I see all the peices there for him to “break out”.

We shall all see, in just a few months, who of us is most correct…….

29 "Phinsider Fued" Points..!!
(1/2 in the 29 "Phinsider Fued" Points for slapping with "That's What She Said")

by Alpha6 on Jun 4, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats true. but for me the hardest thing, and im sure one way or another you all agree with this, is to be happy with a player.

it is just so tough for us to compare and evaluate how good a player is. Marino, Zach, Czonka, Jt…they werent excellent. they were great.

but what’s underneath that? what is excellent? what is good? what is average. Thats my thing. It’s just so hard for me to be happy with a Matt Roth, when i expect a player like Jt to be at that position. Or be OK with a Chad Pennington, when I grew up watching Marino.

But i guess that is all up to perception.

logistically (with numbers?)

Lets say Player A goes from

  ATT YDS AVG LNG YDS/G TD
  241 1008 4.2 47 63 5

to (respectively)

250 – 1200 – 4.8 – 38 – 75 – 6

is that breaking out? or is that just improving?

how would you guage a break out? This is something I really need clarfication on, because we (as a community) and even I do ..throw around that term “break out” ..but what does that mean?

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
Finsx-LOL-Chart by KCsince88

by finsxfactor on Jun 4, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

After going 1-15, which was close to 0-16 and watching Cleo Lemon and John Beck play quarterback, I’m pretty happy to have Pennington. Seriously, Pennington can win a Superbowl.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on Jun 4, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

A Game Changer...

… I think I know where you’re going with this. Those that you measure against and the numbers you put out statiscally are different. Yet there are statistical measures that mean greatness.

I would think that “breaking out” would mean becoming like a Marino, Zach, Czonka, JT. These guys (and every sport has them) are game changers, and can be counted on to go to extremes to win the game. You look to them to do something, to win the game, to change it to give the team a chance to win or to seal a victory at hand.

From what you say… I think the following…
the for sures who are in this category are, JT, Ricky, Bell and Porter.
The maybe’s who could evolve or show flashes are, Ronnie, Ginn, Wilson, CP10 and Roth.
The others are good (or great) at their jobs, will do one or two great things or just go unheralded.

Or, it could be a question like, “how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop”? The world may never know.

29 "Phinsider Fued" Points..!!
(1/2 in the 29 "Phinsider Fued" Points for slapping with "That's What She Said")

by Alpha6 on Jun 4, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am going to play devil's advocate about Crowder,

because that’s just what I like to do.

Channing crowder getting over 100 tackles is awesome. Sure he didn’t make the big plays, but his consistency gives the other linebackers/DEs the confidence to go for the big play, rather than making the sure stop. It is easier for a big RB to break a tackle if one of the linebackers arms is busy trying to strip the ball. There’s a risk reward factor there, and having Channing Crowder as a sure tackle in case the RB breaks out of, for example’s sake, Matt Roth’s tackle because Matt was trying to make a game changing play. Channing Crowder lowers the risk, thus allowing for more risky attempts by the defensive players to make game changing plays. Without Crowder, Will Allen’s hypothetical botched attempt at intercepting a screen pass does not lead to 6 points. Without Crowder, those botched attempts would be taken to the house more frequently. Keep Crowder, we need him. You can’t have a big playmaker without a safe player in the back. Lou Costello wasn’t funny with out Abbot.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You little devil, you!!

29 "Phinsider Fued" Points..!!
(1/2 in the 29 "Phinsider Fued" Points for slapping with "That's What She Said")

by Alpha6 on Jun 4, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the problem with Crowder....

Yes, he’s a fairly consistent tackler. Although he has a tendency to take himself out of more plays then he should. But he should still be having more of an impact than he is. In Zach Thomas’ first 4 years he had 8 INT, 6 FF, and 5.5 sacks. Saying it’s awesome of Crowder to get 100 tackles, is like saying it’s awesome that Carpenter hit 100% of his XPs. Any team who’s MLB isn’t number 1 or 2 on their team in tackles isn’t doing his job. It’s expected of them to get alot of tackles. A good LB doesn’t expect his teammates to make the big plays for him, he makes them himself. Getting the status quo of tackles doesn’t help your team win if all those tackles are after the guy’s gone 5-10 yards.

by luvs2drnk on Jun 5, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly!!

That’s exactly what I think too!!

And it’s frustrating as hell (as a fan) to see and know that the MLB position is so lacking of mighty plays. Even the tackles are average, I think, I mean where’s the awesome hits we used to see? The bone crushing, pass defending, ball knocking hits? Or even better, where are the [being in the right position] plays, like fumble recoverying and interceptions?

Well said Luvs!!

29 "Phinsider Fued" Points..!!
(1/2 in the 29 "Phinsider Fued" Points for slapping with "That's What She Said")

by Alpha6 on Jun 5, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Crowder was going to "break out"

he would have done it by now. I don’t see it. He will always be a nice solid pro. Nothing special. Of the 7 starting ILB’s in the division, he is 5th at best. I would take Mayo, Bruschi, Poslusky, and Scott before I would take Crowder.

by ct1361 on Jun 4, 2009 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

See above :D

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

not necessarily, joey porter had a breakout year in terms of what we expected from him and he is 31

crowder just signed a new contract, hes happy. all he needs to do is make a few game changing plays

El Peezy... "the Calvin Johnson of rookies.. instant impact" -Prime Time
"el peezy strikes fear in opponent bloggers hearts" -finsx

by el presidente 00 on Jun 4, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO If i were to make an example

of a player who had a ‘breakout year’ in 2008 i would say Joey Porter is the best candidate. Without his production this team wouldn’t have made the playoffs and he far exceeded anyone’s expectations and stood out as a game changer for the majority of the season.

 You could argue maybe Pennington, Goodman, Bell had breakout seasons because to me they all exceeded any expectations i had going into the season.

by fins72marino420 on Jun 4, 2009 9:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Goodman is the only one that qualifies,

since all the others were already regarded as top notch players IMO.

Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Jun 4, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

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