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A closer look at the Dolphins WR options

Question:  Do you think that Bess and Camarillo will be the starting WRs on the first day of the 2009 season?  Ginn and Camarillo?  Ginn and Bess?  Or maybe "none of the above"?

I keep reading bits and pieces in different threads (some fact, *lots of opinions*) about our current 11 WRs... vets and prospects.  Quite a few people seem to think that there are some roster spots already locked up at the receiver position, and while that may be true, I tend to think that there are very few "locks" at this point in time.

After all, if there is anything that I learned about our beloved "Triad" last season, it is that on the Miami Dolphins: 1) Competition is not just a buzzword, and 2) the best players play, regardless of the cost.

It's all part of *The Code*.

So I thought it might be time to take a little more of an organized look at who we currently have on the roster, and where each player fits as a receiving option.

Star-divide

First, let's see what we have to work with.  This is the roster info from the team web site, with 40 yard dash times added:

Dolphins Wide Receiver Roster by Name

Wr-roster_medium

Let me state two disclaimers right off the bat...

First, there are always a number of discrepancies that come up when people start throwing out 40 times.  Was it hand timed or electronically timed?  Was it on grass or turf?  Was it an official Combine time, or an individual's Pro Day?  Where there was an official Combine time, I used that number.  Where there wasn't, I used the next best thing... Pro Day, Scout.com, CBS Draft tracker, etc.  Where there were multiple times, I used the best average.   The one exception was for Brennan Marion.  Prior to his ACL tear his time was a 4.3, but three months after his surgery his time was a 4.52.  Since the Fins obviously did not bring him in for his size, let's assume he is a speed guy for now, and is now closer to the 4.3 mark than the 4.52.

Second, I know 40 times are only one indicator of ability, and there are other metrics that are important at the WR position.  The Short Shuttle, or 20 Yd Shuttle, for instance, is a good indicator of whether the WR is going to be able to come out of his breaks quick enough to create separation from the DB.  Wes Welker runs the 40 in the mid 4.6s, but his short shuttle was a blazing 4.01 seconds.  As a comparison, the quickest WR short shuttle time from this year's Combine** was 4.08 by a kid named Kevin Ogletree. 

**Not all prospects ran, but of the ones that did, Heyward-Bey (the 1st WR drafted) was the 6th quickest with a time of 4.18, and our own Brian Hartline was 4th, with a time of 4.12 seconds.  Not bad huh?  Hartline was also the 2nd quickest of the WRs that ran the 3-Cone drill, with a time of 6.65.  Wes Welker?  He ran the Cone Drill in 7.09.

What does this all mean?  And if there are other metrics, why am I only using the 40 Yd times for comparisons?  Well, I'm glad you asked. 

It doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. There are so many other factors that will determine whether a WR will be successful that it is practically impossible to rely on timed drills to predict future NFL performance.  While both the Shuttle and Cone drills are good indicators of a WR being able to get separation from DBs, other factors like a quick first step, good route running, and being able to sell a DB on a good shoulder fake - all these play in to the total effectiveness of a receiver.

But aside from the fact that a 40 time is available for all our players and some of the other metrics are not, the 40 is a good indicator of overall straight line speed, and we can at least use it to compare that aspect of our players' games.  Of all positions, the 40 yd time is probably most applicable to the WR position, since he is the most likely to actually run 40 yds in a straight line during a game.

We can use this metric to try and answer the question, "Who can outrun the DBs and who, most likely, can't?"  In other words, a WR with a slower 40 time better be able to run over DBs and break tackles, or he will end up as a slot/possession type guy, and he isn't generally a home run hitter.

 

But what is "fast"?

In today's NFL, most DBs are running in the sub-4.55 range.  So can a WR who runs a 4.58 going against a CB who can run a 4.54 still beat him on a deep route?  Sure, since there are so many other factors to consider. 

For one thing, 40 times are not run in pads, so when you get everyone geared up for a game, generally the stronger guys will carry the extra weight better and suffer less of a hit to their speed.  A 6'4"-210lb WR who runs a 4.58 without pads may still run a 4.6 with pads, whereas the 5'10" 185lb CB running about a 4.54 may end up being even slower than the WR with the pads on.

Another advantage for the WR is the fact that he knows where he is going, while the DB has to react.  This means a slower WR with an explosive release, along with good agility and footwork, can create separation almost every time. 

Jerry Rice ran an average time of 4.6 in the 40, but he was also known as the NFL's greatest route runner.  It's said that every route he ran looked exactly the same for the first 5-7 yards.  A DB could not tell where he was going until his break.

However, most often when a WR's overall top end speed is slow, he will usually get tackled immediately after making the catch.  A receiver who is good at creating separation, but not fast enough to run away from a DB is most often referred to as a "possession receiver".  And a possession receiver who is not big enough, or strong enough, to out muscle or out jump a DB, is often relegated to playing in the slot.

In today's NFL, an acceptable 40 time for a WR is generally below 4.6 seconds, with elite receivers clocking in at under 4.42.  But if you are a WR running up around the 4.6 mark, you sure better bring some other assets to the table, like size, vertical leap, or extremely good route running.

 

Flanker vs. Split End

There are two primary positions for a WR; the Split End (SE), who must line up on the line of scrimmage (LoS); and the Flanker (FL) who can line up a few feet behind the LoS.

Because the SE is right up on the line, it is easier for the CB to get his hands on him as he releases.  For this reason, the SE has to be able to consistently beat the jam.  This means that the SE is usually a bigger, stronger guy, who can engage the CB without being thrown off his route.  While speed is always important, strength and size are almost a requirement to play SE.

This quote by Dolphins WR Anthony Armstrong (a small, fast guy) about practicing against new Dolphins CB Vontae Davis says it all:

"Vontae, when he gets his hands on you he can control you," Armstrong said, making a throat slashing motion in an effort to say it's over. "He's real strong."

(I think this may be part of Ginn's problems when they line him up at SE.  I don't think he can effectively negate a jam and stay on his route.)

Because the FL receiver lines up behind the LoS, the DB can't play press coverage as easily.  The receiver can get a nice little running start, and if he is fast enough, can probably just run around the DB.  While any one of our WRs could technically man the FL position, you probably want a fast guy there because of the need to stretch the field at the outside receiver spots.

 

The Slot Receiver

Any receiver can play in the slot, as long as they have two qualities... they must be able to create separation in a short area, and they must have reliable hands.  They can be practically any size or speed, but usually have a quick first step, very good balance, and good agility.

SO, for the sake of our WR discussion, let's assume "Fast is Good", but not an absolute. 

Let's also stipulate, for the sake of this discussion, that "Bigger is Better".  If all other things are equal (speed, hands, routes, etc.) between two WRs, the bigger guy will generally win out.

 

Now, let's take a look at the roster again, but this time let's do it by speed.  This should give us an idea of who might stand out as more of a down field threat:

Dolphins Wide Receiver Roster by Speed

Wr-roster-byspeed_medium

A couple of things stand right out here: There is an obvious delineation between the speedsters and the mid-tier guys (for lack of a better term... what should I call them, "the slow guys"?).  And there is a correlation between overall size and speed. The bigger guys are noticeably slower.  We jump from a 4.38 time from Teddy, to a 4.52 from Mr. Brandwagon himself.  What we are missing is a clear "elite" class receiver, who has London's size but runs closer to a 4.4 in the 40 (I'll talk about Todd Lowber in a second).  But maybe this isn't really a problem!  Larry Fitzgerald is 6'3" 220lbs, and ran a 4.63 at his combine.  However, in additional to good size and outstanding strength, he runs nice routes and has great body control (think Turner....?).

The two exceptions related to the general size/speed curve are Bess and Lowber.  Bess, one of the smaller guys, is also the slowest; and Lowber, one of the bigger guys, is also the FLAT OUT FASTEST.  One of his times reported from Vikings camp two years ago had him timed at 4.1 (yes, that is not a mistake) in the 40 yd dash.

Now, it should be said that Bess had several 40 times that average out to closer towards 4.67 than the official 4.7 time (the fastest time I found was 4.6 flat at his Pro Day), his short shuttle was 4.28, and his Cone Drill was 7.15.  Not great numbers, but it certainly can't be said that Bess isn't productive. He was very productive all through college, and was productive for the Fins last year.  As for Lowber, he looks great on paper, but the knock on him is lack of experience.  Lowber was a track star, and never, EVER, played organized football until two years ago at the Vikings rookie minicamp.  So it is not all about the stats.

Let's just go ahead and say that these "small, fast group of guys" are all capable of being the deep threat "take it to the house" type of WRs, regardless of size (a la Steve Smith).  These receivers will probably play outside at the Flanker position (FL) to help avoid the DBs attempts to jam them at the line.  If they are also quick and crisp in their route running, they could potentially move inside to the slot. 

London and Hartline could also possibly be a deep threat, and could certainly be outside receivers, although London's size makes him a better prospect at the Split End (SE) position, and Hartline's quickness makes him a better slot prospect.  Todd Lowber is pretty interesting, because if you could put 5 or 6 pounds on him, and teach him to run good routes and beat the jam, he is the one guy that would be the perfect WR to play at the SE position.  He is almost the exact same size as T.O. or Randy Moss, and is actually faster!

But when you look at the bottom three guys on the speed chart, clearly Wilford, Camarillo, and Bess are never going to be the deep men.  Camarillo and Bess make up for their lack of speed and size with great football saavy and reliability, but they aren't big bodies, and will never be anything more than slot type receivers.  This does not mean they won't play at the SE or FL spots.  It just means they will probably be limited to quick short routes (slants, outs, comebacks, etc.) and will have trouble running deep routes.  And all Wilford has is size, which would make him a red zone target or outside possession guy - IF he could ever get on the field.

So what happens when a guy like Hartline comes in, who is bigger, and quicker, and faster than either Camarillo or Bess?  If he can show the same saavy and reliability, wouldn't he be an upgrade in the slot?

And when you look at the WRs by size, London, Wilford, and Turner are the obvious three guys who could play the SE position inside the red zone and muscle past the DBs to make the catch:

Dolphins Wide Receiver Roster by Size

Wr-roster-bysize_medium

But of the three, London has the best speed and Turner has the best size and body control, based on what we know so far    (also, please see Dave.Phuller's excellent write up on Turner). I would say that this leaves Wilford as the odd man out, because seriously, how many of these kind of WRs do you need?

Something else that is interesting to me, is that while Ted Ginn is clearly the front runner of the "fast guys" due to his experience, he is no longer the fastest guy.  As a matter of fact, if you kept the four fastest guys, Ginn wouldn't even make the cut!  Ginn also does not possess the strength to play the SE spot effectively, and does not appear to have the ability to create separation required to play in the slot.  Ginn looks like he is more of a FL receiver only.

So, as much as I like Camarillo and Bess for their heart, and as much as I have hoped to see Ginn realize his potential as a true deep threat, it looks to me as if they will some serious competition for their jobs, and a realistic chance of losing them.  And Wilford?  With the addition of Turner and the development of London, I honestly think he will not make it through the first roster cut down.

Where do you see each of these players fitting into the scheme of thing?

As you can see, we actually have quite a bit to work with!  Personally, I am very excited by our prospects!

This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.

Comment 152 comments  |  12 recs  | 

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WOW!!!!!!!!!

great write-up….I know of Todd Lowber from the Cowboys HBO thing, but i never knew he was that fast or that big…I’m gonna have to get some more info on him and hopefully he’ll stick around for atleast a developmental project…But, very interesting and informative and with the signing of Jake Grove and (if everyone can stay healthy) our receivers and Pat White, i am confident our offense will be awesome and atleast give headaches to every d-coordinator that we play. Plus, i am totally excited about the new guys on defense (especially the secondary and Cam Wake) and can’t wait for the new season…once again, GREAT POST!!!

by scbrandon on May 8, 2009 12:09 AM EDT reply actions  

thanks man. glad you liked it.

i don’t usually care much for real long posts, but we have been talking about all the WRs in isolation, and I learned last season that our Triad does NOT look at things that way. The bring in a stable of guys with different success attributes and then let competition sort it out.
If they don’t fill a particular position one year, like what happened last year with not finding the big red zone target or split end type when Wilford didn’t pan out, they fill the other spots and then reload the next year and try it again. And every year they keep the “best of the best” and keep getting marginally better.
So in order to fairly evaluate any WR, you have to evaluate them against the others on the roster. And you have to realize that everyone is fair game to lose their job, if someone better comes along.
Thanks again for the rec. =)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

All I knew was that he was athletic. Not a 4.2 and 6’3… crazy.

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by DolfinPhan on May 8, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hard Knocks

There was a scout interviewed on Hard Knocks (NFL Network). He said in his 42 years of being a scout, he never saw an athlete like Lowber.

by gophish on May 8, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOVE to see him develop

but his lack of experience is HUGE obstacle to overcome. Objectively, I’d have to say the odds are against it.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah it's gonna be tough for him

not only because he has SO MUCH to learn before he can play the WR position in the NFL, but also because he’s not gonna get the amount of coaching he needs, simply because there’s other WR’s we need to prepare to play this season and there’s only so much coaching that can go around.

Seems like the guys that need the most coaching don’t always get it because they end up on practice squad. We’ll see though, if he’s that much of a freak, I’d like to see us keep him around and try to develop his skills.

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by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude, i love his natural athleticism

everything i have read about him on other posts says the guy is a freak of nature.
If he can somehow pick up the football specific skills, he could be an incredible find.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holy....

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 12:32 AM EDT reply actions  

FP and side bar this lol...its THAT GOOD

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 12:33 AM EDT reply actions  

well deserved

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

good stuff, lefty!

It certainly seems like, while there is still no true #1, a receiver by committee situation – with each receiver who is active on gameday having a specific role – seems likely and could definitely be effective.

The WR position is also going to bare some watching once camp gets underway in July. Just one of many reasons to be excited.

by Matty I on May 8, 2009 12:35 AM EDT reply actions  

keep in mind matty

Fitzgerald was not particularly fast, but developed into a pretty good #1 receiver. One of our bigger guys (London? Turner?) could end up become that kind of guy. Rice also was pretty slow in top end speed, without pads on.
I wouldn’t necessarily rule out the possibility that we have a true #1 WR on our roster yet.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lefty,

this is the exact type of stuff I referred to in my post when I made mention of the myriad of information I’ve picked up from this site.

Posts like this by informed members like yourself have basically taught me the ins and outs of this game. This is excellent and deserves nothing less than a rec.

I personally believe WR will be the most intriguing position to watch this off season. Camps will bring much competition, and it will be very interesting to see if GamCam can come back from injury or if Bess can continue his development in the slot. Then we have the new guys, and it being Ginn’s third season..far too excited for summer!

Thanks for explaining flanker and split-end; I had never actually understood the difference and what type of WR fits each specific position best.

We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?

by Dave.Phuller on May 8, 2009 12:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Thank you

…your post got me thinking about it. everyone seemed a little disappointed (not overly, just a little) that we didn’t get one of the top WRs… a more obvious #1 type. But you were completely right about Turner, and in truth, when i looked up Larry Fitzgerald I was surprised to see that he was even slower than Turner, so what does it take to make a #1 WR?
Also, I was one of the biggest Camarillo supporters at the beginning of last season when a lot of people were talking about how he was not any good. So when I say he has a good chance to be out of a job, it is not from a haters perspective. i just think he is average in many ways, above average in route running and hands, and a good guy. But if Hartline can beat him out in TC…?
Personally, I hope Camarillo is not ready to come back and gets stashed on PUP or IR. We know what we have in him, and we need to evaluate the other guys.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

great post

I’m thinking we could get a 1st and 2nd from the Raiders in next year’s draft for Lowber….

rec.!

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by Phintastic on May 8, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions  

rofl

We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?

by Dave.Phuller on May 8, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great job

should be highly competitive in camp:>)


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by uncle finster on May 8, 2009 1:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Phenomenal write-up!

Do you teach for a living Lefty? Because that was one of the clearest, most concise fanposts i’ve had the pleasure of reading on this site. And that’s certainly no small feat. This community teems with the well-versed and the well-informed. Great, great job!

by kdock on May 8, 2009 1:28 AM EDT reply actions  

lol

no, i don’t teach but i hope to one day! seriously, so your compliment means a lot.
Thanks! I’m glad you liked the post.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ginn, Turner, Hartline, Bess, Camarillo, London......in that order

Ginn – FL
Turner – Se
Hartline/Bess – Slot…….I also think these 2 will battle for the return spots
Camarillo and London as the backups……..the others go to the practice squad……

Lowber could be a diamond in the rough……plus if he ever scores a touchdown he could do this on the goalpost…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89QspDqxpHs&feature=related

While you’re at it…..check our new pass rusher out here……….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zk_hiMoVk&feature=related

Just one man's opinion...
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Projection: White and Turner - each will have at least 3 to 5 TD's this year...watch!
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by hwyatt3 on May 8, 2009 1:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Camarillo...

Guy has worked so hard, if he did not have an injury I think he would be no question a starter. I hate to see injuries burry players on the depth chart. But with the drafting of Turner and Hartline the FO clearly thinks that the WR need an upgrade and potentially Camarillo is not going to be ready. He may get the PUP list, but that burries him even more.

The good thing is there will be a great rotation for the WR. Hopefully Ginn improves this year, and the FO understands that when Henne (who can throw a deep ball) comes on GInn will explode

The Patriots Suck

by k2oconnor on May 8, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think it will be a good thing to stash Camarillo on the PUP or IR

he is a “quickness” guy and is probably not going to be ready to make those kind of cuts for a while. that also gives us a chance to try out the new guys while keeping Greg on the team.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

great vids. i had seen the one on wake

any idea how how that was?

good post hwyatt. you and i have argued over the years about different stuff, but we are certainly on the same page here. I see Turner as the SE, with the caveat that London could beat him out there. I also see Hartline as the slot guy, because he has the ability to be effective on more routes (like straight up the seam) than Bess. But he has to win it with reliability first.

Ginn is the question mark, although he wins it now simply because of experience.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

lowber may be the one to watch

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by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 1:47 AM EDT reply actions  

agreed.

as much as Lowber is an intriguing prospect, i just don’t see how a guy can be ready to hit the field in front of thousands of people, with only two years of training camp and no high school or college experience.
If our coaching staff can get him on the field ever!, I will be amazed.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ginn!!

I think that Ted Ginn has the kind of determination and mental toughness that means It will be real hard to beat him out. I think that the spot opposite Ginn is up for grabs, however. I’m hoping that either London, Hartline, or Turner really takes the other spot from the rest of the guys.
Ginn has really worked on his craft since he arrived in Miami. I can’t wait to see how it shakes out..

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

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by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 1:48 AM EDT reply actions  

heya AK

howsit going?

there are a few big question marks about Ginn from a pure “WR skills” perspective that no one really ever talks about.

First, the guy is a long strider. this looks great in plain 40 numbers, or if he is already past the DBs, but it is not a good trait for a WR. what it means is that he can’t make as quick cuts as a WR who is fast but with shorter steps. a receiver must be able to make a hard cut on both feet and have the ability to quickly change direction. he generally does not want to make long strides in his routes.
 
Second, balance and agility. these are two things that you have to possess in order to run good routes. people combine them into the term “quickness” usually, but it’s the same thing. being able to come off press coverage and remain in line on your route is all attributed to balance. agility is what gives the receiver the ability to get in and out of every break. basically, the first 3-5 yards or so of every route a WR runs should look the same to the CB covering.

Combine this with a very explosive release and the CB has no choice but to play off him a bit to make sure that he doesn’t get around him. If the CB tries to jam a fast player with good balance and agility, and the players stays on his route, he’s gone.

I could write another whole article on what I don’t know about Ginn. He didn’t run any balance or agility drills pre-draft, so we don’t have any numbers on his “quickness”. And he didn’t play WR all that long in college, so the only real film we have of him is long striding his way to the end zone.

But based on my observations of him in a Fins uniform, I’d have to say that:

1) I don’t see lateral quickness or agility. he does not beat a man in front of him 1-on-1 very often, and he seems to have trouble getting open on anything but a long route. being able to consistently get in and out of your cuts beats being able to run a 4.3 40.
2) he doesn’t seem to have a quick release off the line. he seems to take a long time to hit his stride.
3) he doesn’t seem to have great vision. when he does get the ball, he rarely is able to find the holes in the D or follow blocks.
4) he lacks strength. he rarely (that’s being generous) breaks tackles, and although I haven’t seen enough to state it as fact, i believe that he has trouble getting off a jam. i just don’t think he scares corners if they can get their hands on him at the LoS.

So, if you have a guy that’s been around, like Armstrong, who has speed plus any of these qualities that Ginn lacks, i think he can win the spot.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think all of the technical aspects of these players are interesting, however the most important aspect of Ginn’s game is just that he’s a good “football player.” Simply, he has the ability to make plays that guys like Armstrong don’t have the ability to make. That why all the measurables don’t add up to guys being a good player. That is the same reason that Fitzgerald is a great player. Sure he’s big and has size like many guys, but he can make plays that other guys can’t dream of.

The big play aspects that Ginn brings to the table is what causes problems for opposing teams. They aren’t looking at him saying"well, he’s not that quick" or neither are they looking at his “stride.” They back way off and proceed cautiously.

Therefore, what is needed is a good compliment to Ginn as opposed to thinking someone could beat him out because it won’t happen. Ginn is on another level when compared to the other guys that we have. If a guy like London or Turner can step in with their size it will open things up. The only thing is, we’re not going to rely on the passing game too much so our receivers won’t likely put up big numbers in stats; they will just help the team win games.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

okay, i must ask

Why do you think Ginn has these “Big Play” intangibles?

But based on my observations of him in a Fins uniform, I’d have to say that:

My point was that from observing him play, I have not seen this “ability” more than a few times. He has broken some long returns, but only when the blocking was perfect. And he has that nice end around, or the long TD over the defenders, but more often than not, he is invisible.

I am not looking at a guy that I have not watched play and saying “based on his measurables” I think he will be…. whatever. I am saying that so far, he has not really impressed, and am looking at his measurables to try to understand if there is an explanation.

I am also not saying that he won’t develop; that a QB with a better long ball won’t help him, or that a generally better offensive compliment won’t open things up for him. I AM saying that to date, he has not impressed.

He has speed. We know that. But other than that, I am at a loss to point to anything that makes him “special”. So please, tell me, on what have you based your belief?

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ginn made plenty of big plays during the year. He made plays that others guys can’t make. The Seattle game and the Buffalo game come to mind. When you compare his stats to others guys, his stats are lower because our offense doesn’t lean on the passing game as other team’s do.

Being a former WR, although not a good one:) I always watch the recievers. What he does is open up the offense and he makes enough plays that allows us to win games. If we didn’t have him last year no way we win 11 games. I saw teams paying an incredible amount of attention to him.

What I see in Ginn is a guy who was very young and inexperienced when he was drafted. However, he has worked on being a more complete player and he’s emerging as a very good player. He’s a guy that can help get us back to the Super Bowl and that’s all I care about as opposed to having the “perfect” player at every position.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

okay, fair enough.

I disagree based on what I saw last year, but this will be the 3rd year and you would certainly expect him to break out by year 3.

Just for the record, Miami was the 10th ranked passing team in yards and yds/game, so i’d say Miami leaned on the passing game more than 22 other teams in the league. And i also watched him pretty close last year, and I think you and i define “plenty” differently. i saw a few big plays, and some good plays.

But the thing that no one could see on regular T.V. was what he was doing when he disappeared. Was he jammed? was he blocking? was he running a good route, but the play was just away from him? did he, in fact, draw the defense away from the play and open things up? You really need game film to figure out what was going on, and in that respect I trust Sparano. And I admit, I don’t know they answers to these questions.

but let’s just see how it plays out this year. if he is starting at the beginning of the season, I would expect to see something more this year.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

personally im pulling for this

ginn
camarillo
turner

and for last 2 spots:
lowber/hartline/bess

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
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by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 3:16 AM EDT reply actions  

i don't think cam will be ready

all he has is his route running, and he needs to be able to plant and cut. I just don’t think he will be 100%, and he is one guy that won’t make it running at 80%.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Defining football speed...

40 times are only part of the equation. The pro game moves so fast that “really” fast people can find themselves further out of position to take advantage of their abilities.
So what makes up football speed? Think of Jerry Rice.. he made a living of smoking 4.3 DBs with his 4.6+ speed. Why?

1) Pad speed.
With 10+lbs of addition equipment, can a player maintain his olympic track numbers?
2) NEVER point A to point B:
It is always A to C with all positions. Your cone drill and agility tests are in many ways more important than your 40 time. This is the fast VS quick debate.
3) Intelligence.
Being in the right place at the right time makes others look slow,,, and in turn makes you you fast.
4) Skills
A perfect juke from a WR or stiff jame from a DB can create just enough separation that will always give a slower player an edge, even if for a moment.
5) Love of Contact
In football you get hurt, every play. Whether your injured is another question. Players play hurt and if your bothered by pain, you will slow down. If you can ignore it or thrive on it, you’ll maintain.
6) 4th quarter players:
Physical and mental conditioning of all the points above will keep a player sharper as the game goes on. Everyone slow down during the game, whoever can maintain better will have the edge when they need it most.

Because of these variables there is a fine line between 4.3 and 4.6. 4.2 players will have their advantages and 4.7 skill players will struggle. As the game gets faster, and players better conditioned, NFL teams are more likely to “take chances” on the faster guys because you can’t make a 4.7 guy a 4.4 but you can make a 4.4 guy look like a 4.2 if he works on those variables above.

"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado

08-09 No Award Winner

by NJDolphan68 on May 8, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

thanks for the add on NJD

I think i covered most (all?) of this in the main post (you read it, right?)
=)

 but the 4th quarter point is well made.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

of course.. just nailing it home my good man! REC'd for you sir!

"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado

08-09 No Award Winner

by NJDolphan68 on May 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

TY, u r a gentleman and a scholar
=)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nice Post LCFF

IMO the phins group of WR’s is average at best and probably below average when compared against the rest of the league. That doesn’t mean that they can’t be better this year than last, but there is still an awfully long way to go before they are a quality receiving corp.

Just in the AFC East, you could make an argument that the phins starting WR’s are the worst in the division. Buffalo with Owens and Evan and NE with Moss and Welker are 1-2 in any order. I would say the Jets are 3rd because Cotchery is better than any WR on the phins.

If you look at the rest of the AFC, I would take the WR’s from these teams over the phins right now: SD, Den, KC, Ind, Hou, Pit and you could make an arguement for Cle and Cin. In the NFC: Ari, GB, Det, NO, Atl, TB, Car, Dal, Phi and you could argue Was & NYG.

That is a lot of teams that right now are IMO better than the phins at that position.

Again, great post. rec’d

by ct1361 on May 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I can appreciate the effort you put into writing this...

…but, this all means exactly the same thing as the previous article that was written about WR’s BMI. It all means nothing until the pads are put on. Its great if you’re playing Madden and trying to evaluate players in a video game.

All these numbers mean nothing when it comes to passing the eyeball test during games. I expect Ginn, Camarillo, and Bess to be the top 3 coming out of camp, unless Turner is better than what I’ve heard. We shall see.

by dab415217 on May 8, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

fair enough

but i disagree about the BMI stuff. I am not trying to predict who will be successful. I am talking more about the positions.

And some things are already so well defined, they are almost facts. For instance:
1) we know that Camarillo and Bess have not often outrun or run over a DB.

2) And we know that Camarillo was injured, so it is entirely possible that he may not be the same player when he gets back.

3) We also know that if two players have similar performance, the preference with Parcells will be the bigger one.

The article on BMI attempted to predict a WRs ability to be elite based on fitting in to one of 4 categories of height/weight.
I am asking you where you think our player fit.

Definitely not the same thing. you didn’t read it, did you.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok Lefty, I didn't take a shot at you, or what you wrote, but it seems...

…you felt the need to take a shot at me and say I didn’t read it.

I read every word you wrote. However, it seems you didn’t comprehend what I wrote, or did you actually read it? ;) See what I did there?

What makes this article and the BMI article the same is that both try to use measurements to predict success. You can’t do that, no matter how well researched, or well written the article is. Success is relative, whether you are talking which WR is going to be elite, or which WR is going to be the starter.

Anyway, if you’re going to put your writings out there, you need to be open to people who may disagree with you, without taking shots at them.

by dab415217 on May 9, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

seriously man, where is the shot?

i asked because you say i am trying to predict success. considering what i wrote, i asked you a fair question. the only prediction i made in the entire post was at the end, where i say I think wilford will be cut. and that has nothing to do with numbers, that is just because he has lost so much ground and they have players to replace him.

The whole article was a question. it started as a question, defined the terms, outlined some of the possibilities, and then restated the question. which was, “who do you think will start and where do you think each of these guys will fit?” which you never attempted to answer.

i have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you, and it doesn’t bother me for someone to disagree with me…. i like the differing opinions and the resulting discussion. and i have excellent reading comprehension, so I will re-read you post but I am pretty sure i got it right the first time. You jump to a conclusion that I am using metrics like size and speed to try to predict which WRs will succeed or fail. And you jump to this conclusion in spite of the facts that I have stated that there are many other success factor, and name 4 players who prove the general rules wrong.

So my question “you didn’t read it, did you?” would not be considered a dig by most people, since it honestly looks like you didn’t read it. I apologize if it felt like a dig at you. that was not the intent.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, here is my last reply to what you have written.

“The whole article was a question. it started as a question, defined the terms, outlined some of the possibilities, and then restated the question. which was, "who do you think will start and where do you think each of these guys will fit?" which you never attempted to answer.” —LCFF

“I expect Ginn, Camarillo, and Bess to be the top 3 coming out of camp, unless Turner is better than what I’ve heard.” -dab415217

One might surmise from this statement that you didn’t read my first post. :)

“Todd Lowber is pretty interesting, because if you could put 5 or 6 pounds on him, and teach him to run good routes and beat the jam, he is the one guy that would be the perfect WR to play at the SE position. He is almost the exact same size as T.O. or Randy Moss, and is actually faster!”-LCFF

That is from your original post. What about Todd Lowber makes him interesting? According to you, its his measureables, i.e. size & speed. You even say “he is the one guy that would be the perfect WR to play at the SE position”, “if you could put 5 or 6 pounds on him, and teach him to run good routes and beat the jam”. First, I’m not sure what the 5 or 6 lbs would mean in how he can play the position, but everything you mention is just measureables, not actual ability to play the position. I have very good comprehension myself. When you say someone has the size & speed (measureables) to be the “perfect” (perfect denotes a level of success) WR to play the SE position, you are defining a certain level of success due to only measureables. If you were to have said he has the perfect size and speed to play the position, you’re not defining a level of success. There is where my opinion differs from yours.

by dab415217 on May 9, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

"if you could put 5 or 6 pounds on him, and teach him to run good routes and beat the jam".

…just to clarify, you said he was “perfect” to play the SE position because of his measureables, even though, according to you, they’d still need to " put 5 or 6 pounds on him, and teach him to run good routes and beat the jam". So, as I read that, his measureables make him perfect for SE, even though he lacks some abilities (according to you) to play the position.

“You jump to a conclusion that I am using metrics like size and speed to try to predict which WRs will succeed or fail.” -LCFF

Yes, that is exactly what i am contending when you make statements like the one above.

by dab415217 on May 9, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i do not say he will be successful because of his measurables.

there are absolutely characteristics for different positions. it doesn’t matter what other intangibles someone possesses, it would be silly for you to claim that a 5-8, 180lb guy is going to be able to play left tackle effectively. You’re fooling yourself if you think Parcells doesn’t have height and weight targets for each position. But as I have said many times now, just because you fit the profile, doesn’t mean you will be successful, and just because you don’t doesn’t mean you won’t.

It is also silly for you to at like speed is not a valuable asset for a WR. Of course it is! And having size and his level of speed in the same guy is even more unusual. How can you pretend to make an argument that is isn’t interesting? But, of course, if the guy can’t catch the ball, it doesn’t mean anything. right?

I state in many places that Lowber has practically no experience, so he needs to learn to run good routes to have any chance of success. And in keeping with my question about where each player could fit in the receiving scheme, SE position has to be able to beat a jam, so he has to learn that as well if he is to be successful.

But nowhere do I say that IF hes does these things he will be successful. Size and speed matter. Of course they do! It isn’t even arguable that they are irrelevant. With his speed, he could add a few pounds, which would help him against DBs, and probably not lose any speed. It doesn’t mean either way that he will or he won’t be successful. Doesn’t mean he can’t play that spot without adding weight.

Taking this one thing out of the context of the post is dishonest in your argument. Saying he would be “Perfect” does not denote success when taken in context of the original question and descriptions for each position. It means he would be a “perfect candidate” to play that position based on the position requirements. He can be a candidate for a position and fail. Have you succeeded at every position you have applied for?
And since the question was “where do you see them fitting?” that is my answer, “I see him at flanker or split end due to his speed, but it would help him to put on a couple of pounds to play on the line at SE.” Oh yeah, lest I forget to restate the obvious yet again “the express or implicit categorization of a receiver candidate into a particular WR role is in no way a prediction of future success or failure in that role”.

and i saw the part of the question that you answer about the “top three”, but you didn;t attempt to answer where you thought they might fit, nor where any of the other candidates might fit, which was the point.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's it?

that’s all you took away from reading it?

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, I also took away from it...

…that your ability to hold a debate/intellctual conversation with someone who disagrees with you needs work. First, it was because you said I didn’t read it, and then in your next response you claim I am being “dishonest” because you think I took something out of context, when in actuality I took it literally as you wrote it.

Anyway, this is going nowhere except devolving into something less than what I will be involved in.

Good luck to you.

by dab415217 on May 10, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

way to straddle the fence ..lol

(no nat joke needed)

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

fat*

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

nvm doesnt make sense...just forget the last part

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHAHAHA, nice try to cover up, man.

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

nobody'll know...

(what am i covering up for lol?)

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, cuz if Matty sees you

making lite of the “straddling joke”, you might just get hit with a Threat Box again.

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHAHA, you crack me up Xman!!!!

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

i try my best...lol

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

honestly it was a mistake/typo right now..but thanks for reminding me lololololol

DID NOT MEAN IT LIKE THAT MATTY

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHAHA, I feel like

we are out on the field before the game, stretching and doing sprints, going through our pregame routine.

CKC = the game.

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol i know ...we just find each other

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

too lazy to create a ckc lol..so we just prowl around this time before somebody else does

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, exactly.

Just waitin’ for Coach Sporano to tell us to run out the tunnel and hit the field.

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's trrying to cover his ass from being banned again...

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by Andy Edwards on May 10, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol...not sure how im getting banned for this one..but kk w/e

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

CKC

-"No excuses, No explanations"
-RIP John "Fumbles" Beck, you will be missed
-Dolphins Bubble > all other bubbles

by MiamihastheDolphins.... on May 10, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol you make it

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

already did

-"No excuses, No explanations"
-RIP John "Fumbles" Beck, you will be missed
-Dolphins Bubble > all other bubbles

by MiamihastheDolphins.... on May 10, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

woohoo

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

im just as confused

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by finsxfactor on May 10, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, i say your arguments, like this one, are dishonest

because they are not intended to fairly address the points raised, but instead are tangential and antagonistic. As i said before, i like an honest discussion, but i don’t really care for a conversation with someone who seems to simply post inflammatory responses for the purpose of inciting hostility. I’ve seen other responses of yours in other threads, so I should have expected it, but I thought I’d give a discussion a fair shake. But the reality is that you don’t stay on topic, and try to make it personal when it was intended to be a practical discussion about our receivers.
You go from stating that this discussion is the same as the BMI discussion, to insisting that I have made a personal dig at you because i asked if you had, in fact, read it, to trying to construe the usage of the word “perfect” as equating to the word “successful”, to finally rather than discuss my response about the context, impugn my conversational skills. Looks more like you are the one that can’t handle someone disagreeing with you.
Before you call another’s ability into question, you should take a look at yourself. You have not shown much talent for rational discussion throughout these posts, by continuing to make it personal. And taking pot shots, then claiming that you are no longer discussing it because “it’s beneath you” is actually pretty weak.

Good luck to you also.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 11, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow...

It’s a sad day when you can’t ask someone a question and/or make a comment without them getting all belligerent.

It’s like you’re standing around with a bunch of people and you see this person that looks familiar for some reason unbeknownst to you and you ask “What is that girls/womans name?” and some guy speaks up and says “Are you looking at my girlfriend?” in a confrontational manner and you say “No sir I wasn’t!” and he then says “SO …you think she’s ugly?”.

I don’t give a damn what you say, there’s always someone that just wants to fight!

You’re a better man than me Lefty and a true gentleman.

by haildanhenningnow on May 11, 2009 5:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

that’s a really great analogy for what this conversation felt like.
=)
thanks man.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 11, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

crap man! i was trying to have a serious discussion!

I was cool with a dissenting opinion, but i disagreed with the characterization of my argument as trying to be a future predictor of success or failure.
I remember the BMI post by MaPhinPhan, and in that post, he stated that elite WRs fit into one of 4 categories, and that if the WR did not fit into one of those categories (like Ginn) he had little to no chance of reaching the “elite” category.
I deliberately stayed away from that type of discussion, but this guy just didn’t want to hear it. He seemed to just want to prove that this was exactly what my post was all about. =)

What we’ve got here is… failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it… well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you men.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 11, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Job LC... rec'd

I bet you could’ve spent another 2 pages discussing this issue but thanks for the short and sweet version. Our coaches have a heck of a job in front of them with this set of WR’s. I do think Camarillo should be put on IR, he contributed so much last season and wouldn’t want the Dolphins to lose him again because he re-injured himself. My predictions for the first game this season:

FL – Ginn
SE – London
Slot – Bess
4th – Turner
5th – Hartline

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions  

lol

i edited it like crazy! =)

i like your line up. The only other guy I am really pulling for if Armstrong. It’s possible they could keep him active and competing with Ginn for the FL position in games.

INTERESTING TRIVIA FACT:
WHO PLAYED SPLIT END IN THE NEW “WILDCAT FORMATION” LAST YEAR WHEN MIAMI TROUNCED N.E.?

ANSWER: DEREK HAGAN (for a bigger blocking body)

Pennington was the Flanker.

So… let’s say you take Ginn and Bess out during the WC formation, and put Turner in at SE. Pat White is the trigger man. Ronnie takes Ricky’s role as the motion man (sorry Ricky, you are sitting this one out)… now you can put someone in at the FL position who can really DO something. And if he is a speed guy, you have a QB who can get it to him!

What if you can get Lowber on the field? He is big enough to be an effective blocker, and fast enough to run the deep route.

Or put Turner in at Martin’s FB position, or Fasano’s TE position, and make London the SE? With Ginn or Armstrong the FL?

Just cool stuff to ponder….. =)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Hartline is the guy who would make an ideal SE in the wildcat

Turner, despite his size, isn’t exactly a good blocker. Hartline, on the other hand, loves knocking heads. lol

by Matty I on May 8, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

works for me!

i am just starting to really put some thought into where all these guys fit, and Turner has the size. I wonder if they can teach him to like hitting? =)

Seriously though Matty, how cool is it (now that the draft is done and we have our guys) to start trying to figure out what the coaching staff is thinking? I mean, we have not had a staff in YEARS with consistency enough in how they operate to even begin to guess. But you KNOW these guys have a plan, and after seeing the guys they brought in, you can kinda sorta start to put it together.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's awesome, it really is

I haven’t been this excited for the Dolphins (in terms of expectations and whatnot) in years and years it seems.

by Matty I on May 8, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I fully agree with Hartline being the SE in the Wildcat

The only problem is, akin to the way Pat White’s substitution in at QB would be a dead giveaway that the WC is coming (unless he starts the game period), Brian Hartline’s substitution or shift (from the slot, perhaps, if Hartline were to win a starting job there) would be a dead giveaway as well I feel.

We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?

by Dave.Phuller on May 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if it was a giveaway...

you still can’t bring that safety into the box, it keeps the defense honest. If they do, it’s 1 on 1 matchups all across the field.

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

if you can make a defense react the way you expect, you win

so if putting White in and taking CP out makes the defense sub and align for a WC, then we can run a different formation and catch them off guard, right? the thing about White is that he will probably be able to run any formation, not just WC, and our coaches are just the guys to use this type of manipulation to confuse the D.

It’s a good thing. =)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Armstrong can not and will not compete with Ginn. Armstrong has never even played in an NFL game. I like Cinderella strories too, but damn! :)

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

well you're in love with Ginn

so that’s expected. I like Ginn too, and I think he can be a valuable piece of our offense, but he isn’t the all-world superstar you make him out to be. He’s fast. That’s really it. He’s not a great route runner, he doesn’t possess quick feet or get in and out of his cuts fast, and he takes a while to get up to full speed. He’s not physical, and he doesn’t beat the jam too well, or break tackles.

What he is, is a very dangerous deep threat, and a guy who can (and should) go the distance if he gets in the open field. The problem is getting in the open field for him. There needs to be competition at that position, because it will push Teddy to get better, and it may allow us to find somebody else that can be useful. Armstrong could be that guy.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Four 2008/2009 Matty Awards
Resident Blogger Big Shot "I'm kind of a big deal."

by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

No...

I’m not “in love” with any dudes. Maybe Kim Kardashian and another friend of mine named Juanita, but Ted Ginn, no.

I never said he was “all-world” I just said he is a good player. Just don’t tell me that Armstrong can provide competition when he probably won’t be in the league next year. I just think he is an emerging player who will continue to get better and help the team win. I think he is a “keeper.” I think Turner can be the perfect compliment that we need. Add Bess and maybe London, and the wr’s should be pretty good.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

so why so down on Armstrong?

are you telling me you would seriously be disappointed if he turned out to be better than Ginn?

The guy is faster than Ginn, but all accounts. And he supposedly is quick and makes good adjustments on the ball. Why are you convinced that he sucks?

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of you must have gone to Starbucks today, lol!!

I never said that he sucks I just know that he can’t compete with Ginn. Ginn is an established player now. We know that Ginn is going to make the team but we don’t know that about Armstrong. He has a long way to go to just make the team so actually competing with Ginn is out of the question at this point. Maybe if Armstrong went to the Raiders they’d take him just because he’s fast but thankfully we have a better evaluation process.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d rather keep Ginn, Turner, Bess, London, Camarillo, and Hartline. I don’t see the point in keeping Armstrong at this point. It will all play out in training camp, we all know that so, no worries.

I hate Starbucks too BTW.

"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

Coach Paul Bear Bryant

by AussieKen on May 8, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

i think armstrong musta stole yer lunch money or sumpthin.

;-)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rec-tacular Lefty lol

this was great. You know me, I LOVE the X’s and O’s chessmatch part of the game, so this was awesome lol.

I think we’ll keep 2 of each type of WR, for when we go 2 TE’s (could use 2 FL’s) or 0 TE’s (need 2 SE’s) or spread (need 2 Slot’s). Turner and London will be the big guys, and Bess and Hartline, I think, will be the slots. The only guy I see that will really push for playing time vs Ginn at the flanker is Armstrong, so that’s the position I think we’re really lacking.

Overall, I think that matchups will determine who plays where. If we play a team with itty bitty CB’s, then we could put Turner and London and Hartline out there all day long and just beat them up. We’ll have to see who comes out of camp still on the roster. And I agree that the best thing for Camarillo is to start on the PUP list. It allows us to evaluate the other WR’s and determine if we need him, while still keeping him on the roster. It’s like a Plan B in case the other guys don’t work out or outperfrom GC.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Four 2008/2009 Matty Awards
Resident Blogger Big Shot "I'm kind of a big deal."

by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

i completely agree. this is pretty much the same way i was looking at it.

i think we keep 6 and as of today, i would say the same guys. and i think we us the spread more often this year.
I also think GC could end up being the odd man out at slot, and i think Wilford is likely gone.
i rec’d your post. =)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

So..

London, Turner, Ginn, Bess, Hartline… and White? lol if Pat White stays at QB, then I think Armstrong makes the 53man.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Four 2008/2009 Matty Awards
Resident Blogger Big Shot "I'm kind of a big deal."

by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not unless we drop someone else...

With the 53 man roster post, you use 6 receivers, you’ve gotta drop someone else :(

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

well right now we're up above 80 I believe

so there’s going to be a LOT of cutdowns. There’s 4 TE’s on the roster, one of them can go.

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Four 2008/2009 Matty Awards
Resident Blogger Big Shot "I'm kind of a big deal."

by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha...

I think Martin is the TE that will be sent packing. We keep Fasano, Haynos, and Nalbone.

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we should have an X and O chess match...

That would be a fun post, I’m no where good enough to write up something like that. I think Nicky, LC, Matty or Rz could make something cool out of it.

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

i just wrote my article for the year.

;-)

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha...

1 FP and I’m spent, i like your attitude…

Participant in New CKC Record: The Fall of Duckie!!! 1325 Comments!!

by Heater OsE on May 8, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

for the record

I suck at chess… but I’m good at calling plays in football lol

Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
Winner of Four 2008/2009 Matty Awards
Resident Blogger Big Shot "I'm kind of a big deal."

by Little Nicky 21 on May 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol last year i would've disgarded rillo as a schlump...but i feel now that after what he did last year...hes a HUGE ASSET

heres to the hope he’s back by camp

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Like I said...

I continue to learn at this Blog and it’s because of posts like this.

Very good, very interesting, and very informative.

And all the comments too!

by Alpha6 on May 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

yep

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

considering how long you have been around

and your contributions, i take that as a compliment.
thanks!

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

great read

"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"

-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic

by Patssuck456 on May 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions  

LOL - and to quote uncafinsta
“You don’t say much my friend, but when you do it’s to the point, and I salute you for it.”

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

fantastic write-up, real thorough

I will wait to weigh in about the slot guys until training camp starts, because, like you said, we all love Greg & Davone for their hearts & our natural inclination to root for the underdog, but great food for thought.

"check that...the 29th of Feb. this year.....why is that the record day for hits? Did Matty have the Kim Kardashian sex tape or something?"
-Treat
"yes he did. and Jersquall recut it to look like Marino was boning her."
-Treasure

by chrislucas on May 8, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

i completely agree.

i would not be disappointed if no one beats them out. The are both great team guys, and play with tons of heart.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who didn't rec. this is my question!

Player loyalty is a wonderful thing but is a double edged sword and this reminds me somewhat of the Ronnie Brown trade scenarios and the uproar it caused from some.

You WILL NOT find a bigger Ginn,and ANY and ALL players on our roster, backer,fan etc.etc. than me because he is a good kid but was drafted by a man, that while a very good and decent human being and OC knows NOTHING about building a team the correct way and is much better suited being an OC than a HC, at a spot where EVERYONE expects him to be all world much sooner than his skill set allows him to be so he faces an enormous uphill climb and Im pulling for him.

That being said,I look at the Dolphins like a used car dealer looks at used cars he buys at the car sales..you NEVER fall in love with a particular car because that will cost you money and money is the reason you’re in the business.

If the FO falls in love with a particular player and refuses to move that player disregarding the possibilty of an upgrade for the betterment of the team then you may very well hinder making the team better which is what keeps you employed and puts food on your table.

Ginn is very fast but as I’ve said before..he has a short torso,long birdlike legs and takes forever to get up to speed and basically needs a running start but I like him and hope he can improve where needed and hope he can be utilized to make the team more effective.

by haildanhenningnow on May 8, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

LOL

Well said! i rec’d your post. =)

i also want to note that i believe Ginn can be successful, that he needs to learn better footwork, but it is teachable, and that he is best suited at flanker, with respectful running game and a QB who can push the ball downfield.

But i also look at every position as a possible spot for improvement, and even if we win the SB, we are going to go out the next off season and try to upgrade.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 8, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lefty

After we win the SB….

Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
in Japan missing the 2009 NFL draft......

by Phintastic on May 8, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

we will win it the following year

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 8, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

my bad!

“AFTER we win….”

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Means alot Lefty..thx

Exactly…these guys will never stop trying to upgrade at every position until we have the talent level ,with depth, to compete every year for the SB and I freakin’ love it!

I want to add that I’m glad you spent so much time on this because I think it brings to light players like Lowber and Armstrong who many either forgot about or didn’t realize just how fast they were plus it lays out the endless options we have NOW and really gets my head spinning especially when I start thinking about 4 and 5 WR formations and personnel…OMG!

As you said we do have a lot of talent on this team and I know a lot is made about #1 receivers but can you imagine an Offense where the D has to pick its poison when it comes to who to double cover..that would be like having NEs firepower WITH a running game and that is as close to total domination as I can think of.

by haildanhenningnow on May 8, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't know if I agree that the WR unit has a lot of talent

I might say that they have a lot of athletic ability but I don’t know how talented they are as WR’s. Right now, as a group, the phins WR unit is in the bottom third of the league. IMO they are the least talented position on the team.

by ct1361 on May 8, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough, but we won't really get an idea of what we have until training camp

and i am looking forward to see what a year of development time has done for Armstrong. I think he could be the surprise this year.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Still sticking my prediction

Brandon London is going to be a rising star. He has the speed, hands and the work ethic.

by Quinyne on May 8, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions  

i won't argue that... but we will have to wait and see.

I have been a fan of his for a while. i posted this thread on London last October about his potential:
http://www.thephinsider.com/2008/10/17/637204/no-name-london-making-up-g

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

a little tidbit

during the superbowl tyree was injured during the game so they had to sub in brandon london

but since they didnt have a jersey for him, because he was supposed to be inactive, they gave him tyree’s instead

so that huge helmet grab miracle was actually brandon london

lol true story

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 9, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turner / Wilford / Ginn / Camarillo / Bess / Hartline

are my picks..I think Wilford will fee the pressure to step up this year, Ginn we need for speed to spread the field, Turner will be our red zone man & tight coverage, Bess & Harltine for the slot…that’s how i see it!
Plus we couldn’t get much for Wilford after last year & I really feel he will step up this year due to all his competition!

I would have loved to get to get Hakeem Nicks (already impressing in Giant’s camp)…I feel he will have the best hands in the NFL….but no way could we have drafted Vonte Davis & Sean Smith & Nicks in the first 2 rounds & we needed Davis & Smith!

by MassFinFan65 on May 9, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Ginn

Ginn may not be the fasted but his experience will give him the edge!

by MassFinFan65 on May 9, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

but also

remember

the 40 time was 4.38 while still recovering from that injury

reports had him at 4.16-4.27

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 9, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

WOOOHOOOOOOO count it

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 9, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol..arent we both?

I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Trade for Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.

by finsxfactor on May 9, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent Article Bro!

It had to be pretty good for me to make it all the way thru, ha ha!
Love the statistical breakdown without prediction, so refreshing.
Things got a hell of a lot more competitive at the WR position and I also like A. Armstrong, but considering his need for continued development I can only hope we can get him back on the practice squad. I say we carry six WR because of the contribution of Hartline and London on SP.
Ginn, Camerillo, Bess, Turner (Red Zone), Hartline and London

25th CB VONTE DAVIS / UI (2 INT, 7 TFL, 8 PBU, 3 FF)
44TH QB PAT WHITE / UWV (2700YDS, 29 TD’S)
56TH CB SEAN SMITH / UTAH (5 INT, 1 TD, 2 TFL, 9 PBU)
87TH WR PATRICK TURNER, USC (570YDS, 10 TD’S)
4TH WR BRIAN HARTLINE / OSU (500YDS, 4 TD’S)
5th TE JOHN NALBONE / MONMOUTH (500YDS / 5 TD’S)

by ATS16 on May 9, 2009 1:53 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks man!

sorry about the length. =) I don’t really care for long posts either, and i edited it numerous times trying to shorten it.

Geez, I’m glad you read it that way (without prediction). The only thing i really put a stake in the ground about was Wilford not making it, but that is more about last year and the fact that they have other big body options this year. I was really just trying to lay it out so that people could kind of look at it and decide for themselves where they thought the pieces would go.

the only thing about your 6 (and yeah, i am thinking six also) is that I am not sure Cam will be ready, and even if he is, they might stick him on PuP to create an extra slot for a time. If they do that, i think they keep Armstrong active. Sparano seems to like him.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 9, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

lefty

what are the rules in regards to PuP, is it six weeks then they can come back, but otherwise they are out the rest of the year?

Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
in Japan missing the 2009 NFL draft......

by Phintastic on May 10, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

If a player begins training camp on the PUP list, they can be moved to the active roster at any time, even after one practice. A player is not allowed to be placed on the PUP list if they start training camp on the active roster.

A player who begins the season on the PUP list must sit out his team’s first six games. After that point, the player is allowed to practice with the team through Week 10 of the NFL season, and can be activated any time within that window. If the player is not activated by Week 10, he must stop practicing and is unavailable to be moved to the active roster for the remainder of the season.

-LCFF

by LeftCoastFinFan on May 10, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

great post

I’m hoping all these guys get a good showing during the exhibition games.

my picks

WRs
Bess, Ginn, Turner, Hartline, London, Armstrong
Camarillo – PuP
Marion and Lowber – Practice squad

TEs
Fasano, Nalbone
Trade – Martin

Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
in Japan missing the 2009 NFL draft......

by Phintastic on May 10, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions  

it should be criminal

hartline 4 slot rec. he is fast & good blocker i guess it dont matter how many draft picks u have or can trade down for. maybe 3 key factors in last aprils draft. help for our secondary, a real good blocker down field & then we got pudden 4 our white cat desert b.p. shucked b.b. again man its good to be a dolf-fan. take that afc. east!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by wild zion beaver on May 10, 2009 2:40 AM EDT reply actions  

mr. ginn huum

as i go back over that buffalow game, man did think i would see the likes of that. our w.r. is a high lite real 4 the olimpics, in the high jump!!!!

by wild zion beaver on May 13, 2009 1:42 AM EDT reply actions  

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