Expectations for our rookie cornerbacks - Vontae Davis and Sean Smith
We've now had about a week and a half to digest what the Dolphins did on draft day. We also got to read about how these new players performed at their rookie minicamp this past weekend. And from what I gather, there seems to be a lot of excitement building over our two new rookie cornerbacks - Vontae Davis and Sean Smith.
Don't get me wrong - I'm just as excited as all of you are. I honestly think that these two kids (and they are kids - Smith will be 22 in July and Davis just turned 21 in March) have the potential to be the best cornerback duo in the league in 2 or 3 years. Their ceiling is that high and this coaching staff is that good. But we do need to temper our 2009 expectations for these two kids a little bit.
Yes - we heard some good things from minicamp about these two. But David Neal said it best when he wrote:
And you want to know what we've learned from this thing called ``Dolphins rookie minicamp?'' Nothing of substance. Because there is little of substance to be learned.
It's a minicamp, people. It's shadowboxing compared with the sparring sessions that are preseason games and the weekly Thrilla in Manilas that are NFL games.
So what should we expect from these two rookies in 2009? It's premature to even make a guess at this point. Ideally, I'd love to see Vontae Davis win the starting job opposite of Will Allen and Sean Smith win nickelback job right out of camp (with Will Allen moving inside to the slot when Smith is in the game). But their jobs won't be handed to them, that's for sure.
So what if neither of these two kids win a starting job right out of camp? Would we have to classify them as disappointments already?
Of course, the answer to that question is a resounding "no." But I'm sure some Dolphin fans and/or media personalities will press the "panic" button. So I'm here to tell you that, in fact, the two corners who made up the best cornerback tandem in team history both did not start as rookies, either.
Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain were both 2nd round picks. In fact, both were the 44th overall pick - Madison in 1997 and Surtain a year later. And neither beat out the veterans on the roster when they were rookies.
Madison started three games his rookie season - but that was only because the Dolphins started those three games in a nickel defense. Terrell Buckley and Calvin Jackson were the starting corners in '97 - both starting all 16 games. That's right - Sam Madison was unable to beat out the "great" Calvin Jackson - player who began his NFL career as an undrafted free agent and who was out of the NFL following the 1999 season at just 27 years of age.
Patrick Surtain didn't start any games as a rookie. But he has a better excuse - he was behind Terrell Buckley and Sam Madison on the depth chart and those two started 16 games and each intercepted 8 passes that season. It was late in Surtain's second season - 1999 - when Patrick finally passed T-Buck and took over as the week to week starting corner opposite Madison. Surtain started the final five regular season games that season as well as both playoff games.
Beginning in 2000, Madison and Surtain would start every game they played in for the next 5 years - when Surtain was traded to Kansas City for a 2nd round draft pick. The following offseason, Sam Madison departed via free agency to New York - winning a Super Bowl ring with the Giants.
What's my point to all this? My point is that it would be unfair to expect either Vontae Davis or Sean Smith to start as rookies in 2009. It just isn't that easy. In fact, some of the game's top corners didn't start their rookie season. Nnamdi Asomugha, Antoine Winfield, Cortland Finnegan, Al Harris, Asante Samuel, Antonio Cromartie, and Ronde Barber all were not full-time starters until at least their second NFL season. In fact, the game's top corner - Asomugha - didn't start a full 16 game season until his third season in the league.
Do I hope that our two rookie corners find a place in the top three on the depth chart right out of camp? Of course. But don't worry if neither cracks the starting lineup in week one.
After all, the two corners who made up this franchise's top all-time cornerback duo did not start as rookies, either. But they turned out to be pretty good, didn't they?
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I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon
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Lol...I ...Dont...Care.....
I AM FIRST…I DO WHAT I WANT …
why?
BECAUSE I’m FIRST
lol =)
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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Way to bring us down a level :p
I think we all are getting excited because this is the 2nd draft that the Trifecta has built for the Dolphins. We’ve seen how good they are at evaluating players. I’m sure a lot of us are thinking that, “Hell, if an undrafted FA like Bess can get into the starting lineup then why can’t these guys.” We may not see these guys start a game, but damn we are going to be better because of them. The competition they bring to the positions and the physique that they possess will cause our whole defense to get better. Nice right up Matty as always.
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their competition
Eric Green (an unknown quantity) and
Jason Allen (hanging on by a thead)
Chris Clemons, now he’s the one to get excited about!
25th CB VONTE DAVIS / UI (2 INT, 7 TFL, 8 PBU, 3 FF)
44TH QB PAT WHITE / UWV (2700YDS, 29 TD’S)
56TH CB SEAN SMITH / UTAH (5 INT, 1 TD, 2 TFL, 9 PBU)
87TH WR PATRICK TURNER, USC (570YDS, 10 TD’S)
4TH WR BRIAN HARTLINE / OSU (500YDS, 4 TD’S)
5th TE JOHN NALBONE / MONMOUTH (500YDS / 5 TD’S)
by ATS16 on May 6, 2009 1:01 AM EDT reply actions
Chris Clemons is a safety though
I’m excited about his pushing Bell and Wilson to be better..but I’m not looking for him to start for a couple of seasons. Likely when one of the two incumbents leaves via free agency.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
Thank you for being realistic Matty
I expect them to start and play well within 2 -3 years but I would love for them to start from day one and win Co-DPOY and me win the largest Powerball to date but we are talking in realistic terms here.
by haildanhenningnow on May 6, 2009 1:16 AM EDT reply actions
You are one of those who actually falls for the Lottery???
Have you never studied government affairs and economics??? The Lottery is the biggest hoax and sham on the public. The State makes INTEREST on the money that people like you put in…and while the Lottery grows and grows into millions of dollars, the State makes a killing off the INTEREST that it is bearing for them…
Finally, as no one wins a few times the Lottery continues to grow into millions and millions of dollars while bearing MORE INTEREST for the State.
Then, when finally ONE of those fools wins, the State turns and takes HALF of the money that all of the suckers put in trying to be that ONE and cake HALF of the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of the dollars that the Lottery grew into in luxury taxes. GOT ’EM!!!!
UMMMMMMMmmmm.....
“The State makes INTEREST on the money that people like you put in”
The “realistic” part I was talking about, referring to the Lottery, is that I DON’T play the Lottery therefore I CAN’T WIN IT ie:it WON’T happen = Smith and Davis WON’T win Co-MVP..GET IT?
“The Lottery is the biggest hoax and sham on the public.”
ACTUALLY the “biggest hoax and sham on the public” is the Income Tax for which there is no real law concerning the common worker since the Income Tax is supposed to be for “Corporate Gain” whereas the common worker is merely trading his skills and/or service for a wage.
If I need a lesson in Government Affairs or Economics I’ll let you know!
by haildanhenningnow on May 6, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
WIIIILLLLLL-burrr!!!!
Mr Ed, you crack me up man. You make it your mission in life to create discord, and you are good at it, but you won’t get me! Nope, I’m on to you bud. I’m just laughing at you. =)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on May 6, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL Lefty...
This kinda reminds me of my wifes Sister in that she is a a “seasoned vet” at being a bitch and like I told her “You don’t get that good at something without plenty of practice!”. :)
by haildanhenningnow on May 6, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but you know what they say...
it ain’t work if you love what you do!
;-)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on May 6, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
besides, mred has been around here a long time
he doesn’t post much, but every once in a while he shows up with his little stick and starts pokin’ it in the ant hill.
I used to tease him more about it, but now i just chuckle and wait to see who he can get a rise out of. Matty is usually is primary target. ;-)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on May 6, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
THANK YOU!
Finally a little perspective.
As far as I’m concerned, 90% of all players taken in the Draft are “project players.” Some need more work then others, but it’s completely unrealistic to expect any rookie to make an immediate impact.
Yes, there are exceptions, such as Adrian Peterson or Matt Ryan, but how many rookies REALLY make a standout impression every year in relation to the number that are drafted or signed as UDFAs? I’d say it’s easily less then 5%.
That being said, I think Vontae could start this year, especially since our CBs right now are Will Allen and….. everybody else. I’m still not sold on Eric Green, and the rest of our CBs have all underperformed in the past. I won’t be terribly disappointed if he doesn’t start, but I think Vontae has the physical ability to do it, if he can catch up to the NFL mentally.
Some people try to find things in this game that don't exist but football is only two things - blocking and tackling. ~Vince Lombardi
Mentally?
I know we all discount Wonderlic scores, but did you see his? Pretty sure he scored the highest out of any of our picks..if not, highest out of our Day 1 picks.
I know he sounds like a moron but the kid isn’t as “dumb” as he might seem.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
Heh, he's certainly not dumb.
I was referring more to the mental aspect as in, learning the playbooks, learning to recognize Pro level offenses, adjusting to the speed of the game, things like that. I don’t care how smart a player is or how good he was in college, they still have to get used to that kind of stuff at the Pro level :)
I’m very excited about Vontae, for sure.
Some people try to find things in this game that don't exist but football is only two things - blocking and tackling. ~Vince Lombardi
Yeah, I was probably tired when I commented
I know what you mean. I’m sure he has it in him as well.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
No hat tip?
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
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Hat tip to uncle finster for being a champ at coming up with nicknames
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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lol posted this yesterday afternoon
After reading everything
his "character" issues seem to be a mirage, and listening to him he really sounds like a good kid(after getting over the chuckles), but I would stress to everybody not to be disappointed, IF he or Smith don’t start right away, most CBs don’t, even among the greats, It would not be a need for concern for either player(just our pass D).
I really really REALLY hope he is one of the guys who can start right out of the gate, but if we must, then we have to be patient, because for every Cromartie there is an Asomughe, Surtain, and Madison:>)
“if I’m gonna get my balls blown off for a word…..my word is poontang”Animal Mother
creator of cute little bust name “shrimp Patty” for Pat White
by uncle finster on May 5, 2009 4:58 PM EDT
and no hat tip lol
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
creator of nic name "shrimp Patty" for Pat White
by uncle finster on May 7, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
lol...i gave you a hat tip..if you want i can give you another
Hat Tip to uncle finster for being ridiculously ingenious
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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lol thanx dude!
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
creator of nic name "shrimp Patty" for Pat White
by uncle finster on May 7, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Hat Tip to uncle finster for being especially gracious
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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lol lol LOL
thats a hat tip hat trick,
and the hats rain down onto the ice as this incredible hat tip seeking blogger has bulged the twine for an unpressidented third time in one thread, you don’t see that everyday Chico, O yur right abOOt that Doc.
lol Thanx
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
creator of nic name "shrimp Patty" for Pat White
by uncle finster on May 7, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Hat Tip to uncle finster for confusing the crap out of me
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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I guess you don't watch hockey lol
hat trick=3 goals in a game, when a player gets a hat trick(at home) the fans throw their hats out on the ice, “bulged the twine” is scoring a goal, and Doc Emrick and Chico Resch are long time Devils commentators
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
creator of nic name "shrimp Patty" for Pat White
Hat Tip Hat trick from "X"
by uncle finster on May 8, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL sig = awesome
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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Great comparison...great writeup Matty
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Calvin Jackson was a tough dude!
Plus he had been around a while, so there was no way he’d get beaten out early. I watched Madison closely his rookie year and he was pretty terrible until they played the Raiders. It takes corners a while to acclimate to the NFL.
I still expect Davis to start. This regime does things differently; he will have to earn it but they drafted him because they know that he’s better than the guys here before him, so Vontae Davis will be the starter.
Smith may take a while. I don’t want him to be the “nickel back” I want him to stay at corner only until he’s ready to start next year. The veteran guys can play the nickel while he plays special teams and back-up corner.
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
Maybe I'm crazy here...
…but when I say I want Smith to be the “nickelback” – all that means is the fifth defensive back on the field and is generally the 3rd corner. That’s what I’m hoping Smith can be as a rookie. Then when he comes in, put him on the outside receiver opposite Vontae Davis and let Will Allen cover the slot receiver.
Yeah I know what you meant...
But its really a different position altogether. I would want Smith to get as much experience as possible as a corner going man to man, primarily. I just don’t want to see him playing “in space” to much as a glorified safety position. I would like a more experienced guy like Eric Green or Jason Allen to do that because I don’t want them going “one on one” with anyone. Basically what I’m saying is that I want him on that “island” and to stay there until he can take over the position. Maybe we have the same thing in mind, its just that when I think of a “nickel” I’m thinking of more of a safety playing in open “space.”
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
yup
I think we’re saying the same thing using different words. When I think “nickel”, I think of the team’s 3rd corner – cus usually thats who the nickel is. It’s rare that the nickel is a 3rd safety.
But like you, I want Smith on an island as well. I’m picturing him on the outside covering a receiver man-to-man, with Vontae outside on the team’s other outside receiver – and then sliding Will Allen inside to cover the slot receiver when the opposition goes with 3 receivers.
some people like formation and substitution talk...
some people don’t understand. You could spend a whole year on explaining the dolphins defense and substitution packages, schemes, and what not, I don’t think many would care. The fact is that we’ve got good draft picks we can trust in the trifecta. :p I guess this is my own attempt to get matty back for the reality check.
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We should be so lucky
If only these two could eventually become the type of shutdown corners that Surtain and Madison were for a few years. I miss those years, and still feel cheated by Dave Wannstedt. We should have been able to win a superbowl with a defense that featured those two corners, Jason Taylor, and Zach Thomas. I still have nightmares of the wobbly ducks that Jay Fiedler used to throw to opposing teams.
Great Write-up!
I dont think either one will start but i thank they will play alot this year smith i thank could do good in the red zone where he doesnt need to worry about making rookie mistakes and can use his athletic ability and size to make his plays and Davis i think will get alot of playing time through the year on the LC spot and spelling Allen when he needs a break but i think they will contribute but no start and i thank Davis will be a full time starter next year and Smith to become a starter within the second half of year 2 and full time within year 3 unless J.Allen pulls his head out of his ass or some other rookie comes in this year or next and surprises everyone but bewteen our young CB and our addition of Gibril Wilson who also is on the younger side and our addition of S clemons i think we will have a very Physical and Young secondary for many years to come and if Smith size gets to him and cant hold up as a CB which i think he can and will stay at CB he could always be used as safety wit Clemons so we could very easily be set in the secondary for starters for the next 5-10 years for the most part
I've gone cross-eyed...
trying to decipher that “sentence.”
lol
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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LOL
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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Well, what is all the "realistic" crap?
Now is the time for all good Fin Fans to believe that the sky’s the limit; that we just had the best draft since.. well, EVER!. And that all of the rookies are going to step right in and make the Pro Bowl this season!
I fully expect both Vontae to win the starting job in camp and and Sean Smith to be starting in the Nickle by mid season!
GO FINS!
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on May 6, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
good write up
but I think it’s realistic to expect Vontae Davis to start, if he’s as good as advertised. He’ll definitely get a ton of playing time and really be able to develop into a great NFL corner.
Thanks for the Reality Check
I think it is wise to revisit Madison and Surtain, who are the benchmark for what we all hope Davis and Smith can eventually be.
Even if fans will be fans and have unrealistic expectations, it helps that in the back of everybody’s mind is a voice of reason and historical background.
That being said, I predict that the Trio will play Davis and Smith ALOT.
I don’t foresee co-DROY or Pro-Bowls.
There will be rookie mistakes and miscommunication aplenty, but I also predict that there will be ENOUGH big plays made by the kids that will keep the coaches putting them out there to expose them to more opportunities for error-correction and on-the-job training.
After all, if your corners are going to get burned, wouldn’t you really PREFER to see Davis and Smith getting burned and learning from their mistakes rather than seeing potential free agents Jason Allen, Will Allen, Joey Thomas, and Eric Green repeatedly and regularly being abused?
By the way, I think the Pat “Big Play” White Wildcat option will go along way toward helping Miami mitigate some of the easy scores that will be given up by our young but developing secondary.
I also predict that Chris Clemons will beat out Gibril Wilson for the FS position. Gibril is more of a Strong Safety and is at a disadvantage to Clemons at the FS position both in mindset and skill set.
Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and a 5th Rounder. Trio > me.
kean info matty
lets see there have been a few teams that started c.b. rookies wasent there a real big time bruiser that played for raiders-(woodson)? it goes back a few years, maybe he was a safety. ah there was ahead hunter that played in the same naborhood across the bay (lott) sorry my info might be a bit off tonight; but u get what trying to get across this v. davis could be miami’s “ronnie lott” the one that sticks ya kisser, straightens your spine & leaves u gaspen for air!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by wild zion beaver on May 6, 2009 8:32 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry
i dont use periods and such iam not writing an essay for school its just a post if i knew it would make that much of a problem i would of used em
I can loan you one - here, you go! ●
on second thought, take two ●
i’ve got a few to spare●
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on May 6, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
LOl...wow thats like super dot's twin brother
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon
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Well thank you
Ill make sure i get your acceptance on my next post. Is that wat I need. Shit I didnt put all the letters in what and i know i have some spelling errors nothing about that huh?
lol it's just hard to decipher what you're actually saying when it runs on that's all
It’s not that people are criticizing you for not using them, just kinda difficult to read. Spelling isn’t a problem as long as it’s close lol
btw, if you tell me that the MF in your name stands for “MotherF**ker” you’re my hero lol
Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
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by Little Nicky 21 on May 7, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
People get excited about roookie minicamps because
there is simply nothing to talk about right now
"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"
-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic
LOL its funny cuz its true
"if I'm gonna get my balls blown off for a word.....my word is poontang" -Animal Mother-
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by uncle finster on May 8, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
true story
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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the conerbacks and safeties
i think that smith,davis,and clemons will work their way into the rotation at some point or another,i have tickets to watch rhe dolphins play this year at nashville aagainst the titans and im hoping to get tickets to watch the dolphins at atlanta, since i am a 36 year fan or more from 45 miles northeast of knoxville tennessee along the virginia and kentucky border,the only nfl game i have seen before was in nashville the year after ricky williams ran for 1800 plus,in a game the dolphins lost unfortunatly but it wasnt a sad 4 hour drive home although the dolphins lost,the titans have been my second favorite team sice they came to nashville ,but i hope this time is different i hope the dolphins win because i wuould love to see them play in superbowl in miami,i also want to drive to atlanta since i have the money to order tickets .i liked the draft a whole lot,maby they can use this year to get our cb,safty and big wideout,and next year we can go after lb ,dt,and other linemen
lol finsx! give this man a woohoo!
Phinsider HOF C/O 2009
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by Little Nicky 21 on May 7, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
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