Early thoughts about draft weekend
by Matty I on Apr 27, 2009 3:00 AM EDT
in 2012 Miami Dolphins News
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PrintOver the coming days and weeks, we're going to really break down what the Dolphins did in the draft. But one thing you won't see here are "draft grades." Why? Because it's impossible to grade a draft class that hasn't even ptaken the field in a practice yet. Most agree it takes 2 or 3 seasons to really evaluate if a draft was good or bad. So why do so many insist on trying to determine how good a draft was just days (or sometimes hours) after the draft is over?
I'm not going to do that. Instead, let's just talk about some of this weekend's developments.
WHAT IS A "REACH"?
This is something I don't understand. Why are so many Dolphin fans saying that Pat White was a reach in round two? Or saying Patrick Turner was a reach in round three? Here's the thing. We think they are reaches because guys like Mel Kiper tell us they are based on how they graded out the player. But I think this draft was a perfect example of how inaccurate all of these pre-draft mock drafts are and how we really don't know at all what teams are thinking. If you listen to the draft experts of the world, you would think that there were a ton of "reaches" in this draft by many teams.
But these teams have information we don't. Maybe Pat White would have been drafted by the Patriots or Cowboys in round two if we didn't take him at #44. Maybe another team was seriously considering Patrick Turner or Brian Hartline until we selected them. It's unfair to call any of these picks "reaches" because we simply don't know how far that player would have fallen if we had passed on them. And doing so is basically displaying ignorance because none of us have the information that our front office had.
Do I think we could have gotten Pat White or Patrick Turner a round later than we did? Maybe. It's certainly possible. But if Bill Parcells and Jeff Ireland liked the player a lot, why take the risk on missing out? To me, our front office showed that they have the guts to stick to their gut and make the selection they feel is best - regardless of how others might feel.
I don't know about all of you, but I'm going to trust this regime until they give me a reason not to.
But it was GM Jeff Ireland who said it best on Sunday, when asked about the draft critics and their criticism of some picks:
“I would say that the ones that are projecting them and are not in the draft room and aren’t in the business, really don’t know what we go through. We keep it highly secretive, its highly confidential information, our scouts don’t talk and so I don’t know where some people would get their information. Unless they have been on the road scouting, like myself and our other scouts who do a tremendous job, they would not know the needs of the teams are, sometimes they don’t know the character of the player, they are just kind of going out there and I don’t know where they are getting their information. So I don’t pay much attention to it to be honest with you and don’t really care to be honest with you.”
WHAT THE DRAFT TELLS US ABOUT OUR VETERANS
Lost in all of the picks that were made is what the picks might reveal about how Miami's front office feels about the players currently on the roster. The Dolphins didn't address the supposed need at outside linebacker. I think this says a lot about Cameron Wake, the CFL star Miami signed this offseason. It could also say a lot about Erik Walden - a special teams standout who is also a pass-rushing OLB. And don't sleep on Charlie Anderson. This regime was high on him when they signed him last offseason and he began to make some plays during the second half of last season in his limited playing time.
The Dolphins didn't draft any interior offensive line help, either. This has to be a sign that both Donald Thomas and Justin Smiley are progressing very well from their injuries last season.
On the flip side, the Dolphins spent two day one picks on cornerbacks - Vontae Davis and Sean Smith. Personally I'm thrilled and I think what this tells me is that Jason Allen better show something during training camp or else the JA experiment could be over and he could go down as one of Miami's biggest draft busts.
And the selection of two big wide receivers - Patrick Turner and Brian Hartline - could be a sign that the Ernest Wilford debacle could be coming to a close. His cap hit will no longer be a reason to keep him around - as the Dolphins do have the room to send him packing.
WHY PATRICK TURNER AND BRIAN HARTLINE?
Without a doubt, taking these two big wide receivers back-to-back in the 3rd and 4th rounds today created a stir among Dolphin fans. But I'm actually excited to see these two take the field because I think that hitting on at least one of these big receivers will go a long way towards improving Miami's offense.
Here's what Jeff Ireland said about Turner:
"We feel real good about this young man. He is a big, tall receiver; I think he runs excellent routes. He scored ten touchdowns last year, he’s a playmaker, he’s played inside, he’s played outside, he’s smart. I think he’s got some versatility and some very good hands. A highly recruited player coming out of high school, played at a very successful program. They know how to develop receivers there (USC), who usually go on to get drafted. I feel really good about this young man."
Turner himself compares himself to a Marques Colston type of player - which to me reads as a big, physical possession receiver who runs good routes.
Hartline seems like the kind of kid that we're all going to enjoy rooting for. He comes off as a kid who will do whatever it takes to get on the field and be successful. Hartline compares himself to fellow Buckeye WR Anthony Gonzalez, saying:
"I like what he does. I like what he brings to the table. But I'm my own player. I don't know what Miami has in mind, but whatever they have in mind I'll get the job done."
Hartline added:
"I'm a big kickoff coverage guy. I love cracking heads."
If nothing else, the selections of Turner and Hartline will add to the number of things we have to watch for when camp opens.
OTHER HIGHLIGHTS FROM IRELAND'S PRESS CONFERENCE ON SUNDAY
-Says Chris Clemons is a big, aggressive safety with good cover skills and will "contribute to the roster very well."
-Says Andrew Gardner will be a left tackle - he's got "left tackle feet" and is very smart.
-Says J.D. Folsom is a "developmental candidate" who is a smart kid and a "real good core special teams player."
-Says the Dolphins haven't discussed the idea of bringing Jason Taylor back in any detail yet.
-Says Miami plans to bring in 8 to 10 undrafted free agents.
-Says he and Bill Parcells are more comfortable drafting from bigger schools they start a lot of games and there's a lot of film on them - meaning you don't have to guess as much.
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Very good write-up, Matty
And let me add this, maybe finally guys will back off of Matt Roth a bit as well. Obviously, the team has a high amount of faith in the guy, especially with a full year of experience that he’ll have now.
All in all the draft wasn’t what I had in mind, but I do know that the team is better now. I can’t wait for the season to start.
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
Or, it could also mean they have Jason Taylor as a fallback position.
I’m thinking they will sign him now since they didn’t draft a an edge pass rusher.
Funny
The Patriots fans are wondering the same thing. Is a bidding war for his services coming up?
by hythlodaeus on Apr 27, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Great write up Matty
Ireland basically said that they aren’t morons and passed on certain higher profile names and/or positions for a reason and I assumed as much .
by haildanhenningnow on Apr 27, 2009 4:18 AM EDT reply actions
"This draft wasn't what I had in mind"
Couldn’t have said it any better. And yet, I couldn’t have said your following statement that “the team is better now” any better either.
Davis and Smith; one of the two I guessed would be a Dolphin. Honestly? Not both. But Thoughts of Madison and Surtain immediately jump to my mind whether that’s fair, or accurate, or both, or neither.
Pat White, eh. i wanted to believe we wouldn’t take him but I had a feeling we would.
The funny thing is, now that we HAVE taken him..I’m gald we did.
Look. We all have our thoughts, our opinions, the players we want to see make our roster and the players we don’t want the front office taking a chance on. At the end of the day, we know nothing compared to what they do. If you argue that, fine. But we still have zero experience doing what they do, and thus, we know less about what’s going on and what picks deserve to be made.
I went into the draft fairly closed-minded: I wanted ReyRey, or Davis, or Butler, or Smith with our first round pick. Nobody else. I wanted Brace, Barwin, Sidbury, or maybe one of the aforementioned cornerbacks to fill our second picks. Nobody else. When ReyRey fell to us and we passed, I was RIPPED. When we could have taken Barwin, or other solid picks at #44, I was RIPPED when we took White. Seeing Smith fall to us at #56 was nice, and I was generally fine with Davis at #25. But I felt our value was poor, and missing out on Maualuga with him available at our pick made for an awful move.
Maualuga went on to last into the first ten picks of the second round. That means something like 15 teams passed on Maualuga even AFTER Miami passed on him. What does that tell me? There’s a reason those guys are up there doing what they do. if they want to take White, then take Turner and Hartline..fine. I love the picks until I have reason not to.
Cannot wait to see how these picks, and especially these UDFAs pan out. If we can find ourselves another diamond, just one, even contributing less of an impact than Bess. That’s a steal, and a great move.
Sure, Miami might have missed on some of their picks when all is said and done. Hell, they might have missed on ALL of them. I don’t know that yet. But the fact of the matter is, there is every reason that Bill Parcells, Jeff Ireland, and Tony Sparano are up there drafting and I’m not.
Nice write-up Matty.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
Watch! He is going to bring a lot of fun to this team!!
"You are the people you hang out with"
by buckeyebill on Apr 27, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Post...
I love how Ireland told all the media, “He doesn’t know where people get their information.” It’s definitely a guessing game but this shows that our guys are improving every year and will continue to (in secrecy :P). I liked how he talked about the draft not being the end of searching for players who can help “OUR” team. This helps us, but the attitude of the Trifecta will attract more and more players who want to learn the game and work. I’m extatic, and I hope everyone can agree, we are getting better and we are doing it at a faster rate than other teams.
25th pick - CB Vontae Davis
44th pick - LB Clint Sintim
56th pick - DT Ron Brace
Creator of the "John Philips Bandwagon"
I agree about the notion of reaching etc...
On the one hand I’m happy with the draft
On the other, until we draft a massive OLB/DE who looks like he was born to kill Tom Brady every draft gets a meh+ from me.
All I can say is...
…this next season may not be as good in terms of our W-L record (tough schedule, Pats are back, etc) – but this team is going to be a helluva lot of fun to watch each week. We’ve got playmakers on both sides of the ball finally and the most creative playcallers in the NFL…
I can’t wait…
I'm one of those that want to see the Wildcat less...
…so I’m not really excited by the Pat White selection. However, he will add the ability to throw the ball down the field from that formation that Ronnie Brown lacks. That being said, he is still goign to need to play other positions if he wants to see the field more. So I suspect he’ll be working out at WR too.
It wasnt a Parcells-esque draft
We seemed to be focusing on Skill guys
"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"
-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic
Needs Plus
Interesting that most people wanted us to draft a corner and a WR and we drafted 2 of each (3 WR’s if you count White). I like this approach of multiple drafts at the 2 main need positions, giving us more opportunity for at least one of them to be a keeper.
They focused on the TYPE of player they wanted for the team they are building. Type not hype. Big, strong, tall, hard hitter, whatever it was they wanted for that position is clearly how they drafted. Once you have the right type, they will mold them into the right player with good coaching and strength training and then you have the perfect fit for their system.
This is very different than a team picking the best player who may have been great due to a system, teams played against, etc.
Building from the ground up starts with good building materials, not a finished product, and that is what I see the trifecta doing all too well.
when you look at
where the league is going in terms of being a pass happy, having 2-3 shut down corners is going to be nice to have. especially when you look at our division and all the the WR’s we are going to have to cover. i absolutely love the draft and people can say what they want about P. White, the guy is a winner, straight up, and this regime knows it.
After sleeping on it.......
I dont have it in me to doubt these guys….why would I?
I think I was just more shocked…that they went Patt White so damn early when REAL DIFFRENCE MAKERS were there.
Not only that but Ireland saying he is a QB and will compete with Henne….just confused me.
Turner looks like diffrence maker……Hartline is whatever…i dunno a damn thing about him so i wont say i do.
I just all in all thought we let some things really pass us by.
Regardless….we got better.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Turner does look like a difference maker
And I’m beginning to warm up to that pick. Good feeling about it..
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
by Dave.Phuller on Apr 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Hartline for a NT!
And i will gave a 100% on this draft. White is not bad at all.
Butdefinitly we got better!
I will see the Dolphins win a SUPER BOWL before i die(22 years and counting)
nice post
truth is no one but the phins know where they stood! everyone makes their opinions off the media an draft gurus and then feel they are the gurus too. i like drafting nablone and folsom shows that the FO doesn’t go with the flow. What it comes down too is we only see the big name players play and cant help to think they are the best and feel we got screwed when a smaller name is picked! i like the draft white and turner are my favorite picks/surprises.
The Patriots Suck
Overall, I thought it was a 'solid' draft...
We had some big needs coming in and that was no secret. That said, we addressed some of them in a very big way – CB and WR.
There’s no doubt our secondary should be better and also we have more options at wideout too.
I’m not high on the Pat White pick though. There is an obvious comparison out there which has not been mentioned in terms of physical ability to Pat White – and that would be Michael Vick. Except Vick was a better passer and a faster runner as well – again this is a comparison of athletic ability, not character in which there would be no comparison!
As I’ve said throughout, I LIKE pat white and think he’s a very good kid. I just think at #44 in the 2nd round, you shouldn’t be drafting a niche player for a gimmick formation who is a) unproven at the positions you want to play him at (re: WR for example), and b) you have more pressing needs.
I’ll root for him and I hope he does some great things in a dolphin uni.
THe Hartline pick was puzzling – maybe they see him as a ST only?
Otherwise I liked the picks and thought they were addressing needs.
We didn’t get a NT or ILB unfortunately but in fairness, it is hard to pick for every need in a single draft when you have so many needs!
I’d give it a grade of say, B.
How can you say we addressed the WR need?
we need a #1 WR….not 7 #2’s and #3’s running around.
I likeTurner…but he isnt a #1…..probally in 3 years if he is lucky.
I guess they just dont think we need a #1wr….that or Ted Ginn Jr. is gonna step up to them/
to say we got the WR need filled….just cuz we took 2 isnt accurate
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Do we really need a number one though? Having a lot of different options and guys who are solid isn’t a bad thing. A number one is nice, but I’d rather have 5 number 2’s who get the job done and play team ball. Make it hard for the opposition to figure out who to double-team.
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
I can both easily and correctly say we improved the WR position.
What role do you think Turner is going to fill? Obviously that of red-zone/jump-ball receiver. Something we do NOT presently have.
ANd obviously the FO knows we need this player because that’s what they brought in Wilford for last season. The fact that he was a complete disappointment is the reason we picked Turner – to provide that tall, strong receiver near the goal line where the Chads can just throw the jump ball.
I agree with the idea that
Hartline was drafted to improve our ST.
I think even I underestimate just how valuable that aspect is to the game, and if they took him as that/potential 4th guy on the depth chart with upside..not a bad pick.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
by Dave.Phuller on Apr 27, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
couple of things
well, really who says we need a NT? some of the media, but what do they know of soliai or cohen do in practice. I mean look at the effort the went to to get soliai straightened out? the easily could have cut him last year but they didn’t, so it’s obvious that they see value there.
also, i’m heard/read that the team believes that they might be able to move merling inside to take fergy’s place, which makes a lot of sense as he’s a tweener on the end and did seem to show a lot of speed last year and maybe more suited for the inside.
by W NY Fins Fan on Apr 27, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
forgot to add the other point
was watching the draft coverage on the NFL network, and to the laughter of the nfl talking heads (not gruden btw) mike mayock said that within 3 years pat white WILL be the starting QB for the dolphins and he will beat out the 2 chads.
i have pretty good respect for mike and he doesn’t throw that kind thing out there for effect like some people (say jaws). mike was glowing about pat’s prospect as a passer in the NFL (something i don’t think anyone ever said about vick …. strong arm yes, passer no)…
so i think you are SERIOUSLY underestimating what a good QB pat is, and don’t forget many scouts said he was the BEST passer at the combine.
by W NY Fins Fan on Apr 27, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
and he makes crazy panther growls.
Winner of All Movie Quote Challenges
Unofficial Leader of the Sign Matt Jones Bandwagon
Great job laying it out, Matty.
Sooooo many “experts” barking about what is, was, shall be.
I hope they read this,
Larry Little and I both wore 66 in our football careers. I think that means something.
I, Tunaflipper, am the creator of the "Draft DJ Moore Bandwagon"
But now that we have him...Hartline is a special team dream
lil early for a special team dream…but ill take him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JiSSlyWy70&feature=related
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Wow!
I bet he has no problem going across the middle either!
by texascowpunk on Apr 27, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Great job Miami!
At some point in time it’s gotta stop being a reach and start being just a wrong guess by the “experts.”
I think the Dolphins did a good job. We got 3 impact players in the first two rounds and we spent the rest of the draft getting players we could build for special needs (Turner for goal line situations, Hartline for special teams) but aren’t necesarily going to contribute tons in the first year.
We built for the present last year because that’s what we needed, and this year we drafted for the future because we’ll need that too.
And I don’t think any of our draft choices were a mistake like a lot of the ones I saw in the first round. I really think we got the best qb in the draft, even if we never use him as a qb (he may turn out to be the best player period), and we didn’t have to trade up and spend more to get him. The Jets were stupid for trading up for Sanchez and the Lions are going to ruin another qb, though I think Stafford is hyped up. We also appear to have met our cb needs, which was probably more important than anything. That was one of our worst issues last year.
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
Well I did think White was a reach then back to back wideouts but man oh man getting Davis and Smith makes up for it all
I think we had a good draft and I wont say the White pick was a bad one at the time now that I think about it because he may have been off the board by our next pick but man Im stoked two physical corners that I wanted go ahead NYJ go get Plax
Winner Of The 2009 Phinsider Predict The Pick Contest
Good Draft
We had two big needs – CB and WR
We addressed the CB issue big time, we also helped our secondary by getting a Safety was well.
We also got some really good help at WR, and well to talk about Pat White for a second, he will be an immediate impact player. For everyone who is saying he is a reach, no player is a reach unless they would have been available by the time you pick next and by all accounts, Pat White would have been taken by then, so it was not a reach by any means.
I say we had a good draft.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
Hartine and Turner
The more I read about both, the more I like these selections, they are both talented receivers that give us more options. Here is what is going to likely happen:
The trifecta will now take all these WRs and say you all have to work to see who gets into our 5. Bess is likely a lock, and so is White if they use him at WR, but really I think they will use White in both situation but have him as a QB, which is what Sparano said despite many on here telling me I was wrong, thanks guys lol
Anyway all the other receivers have to work to get onto the squad, competition is a very good thing, and Parcells wants to know who will be our 5 BEST WRs by the time the season starts, those guys will make the team.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT reply actions
I said it when Turner and Hartline were drafted
Bess, Camarillo, and London should be worried. 2 of the 3 will not be on the team at the start of the season. White, Turner, and Hartline will be on the team. No GM will part with at 3rd and 4th draft pick in the same year they were drafted. That is an admission of failure.
The phins will keep only 5 active WR’s for game day. Ginn, White, Turner, Hartline, and whoever is left. My guess it will be London. He has size and speed that the other 2 don’t have.
HAHAHAHHAHAAHA
dude…we just signed Cam to a contract didnt we?
all 3 will be here…..because all 3 performed in the NFL already.
Wilford is as good as gone….and itll cost the same for him to be gone as it would to keep him..so that signing was a TOTAL DISASTER
After Smith Im confused with this draft…but if ur gonna say u trust someone no matter what…u gotta walk the walk….and thats what im doing…wven though i feel like barfing.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
If you are going to take a cap hit for Wilford
might as well take one for Cam. Probably to get him to sign some kind of injury settlement if needed. He might not be ready by training camp.
I doubt seriously any of Cam, Bess, or Ginn goes
unless there ends up being a market for them. White will get very little time at WR he’ll do wildpat and maybe a few plays at rb where he’ll go in motion, sweep with possablity of throwing. And be the 3rd QB. Like Henne last yr he’ll sit except for 10-15 snaps a game. London, Hatline, Turner battle with one going unless cam goes on PUP. And if London has improved and proves to be a better player then the two rooks the loser goes on PS or is cut.
What the selection of the 2 wrs says being both the big possission types and not speed is that Ginn is the #1 and that they are comfortable with him. Cam and Bess slot and Turner or Hartline is the hope for the 2nd WO
Confidence breeds success, self-doubt breeds failure
Bess was a gem last year
Sorry but there is no way they get rid of him, I think they will have 6 active WRs on the roster and not 5. I guess we will see
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
if they play special teams it wont matter
hartline is a special teamer with a ceiling like welker……CEILING that is. not likely.
special teamer.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
But it does matter for gameday rosters
if the phins dress 6 wr instead of 5, that means there will be one less LB, DL, or DB dressed. And the 6 wr will be nothing but special teams because not all 6 can get on the field at the same time. Dressing 6 wr’s limits the other roster spots drasically, that is why NFL teams don’t dress that many.
we arent cutting bess/ camarillo/ london...sorry dude
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Which is why
Pat White will be listed at QB and NOT WR like I said he would. Sparano even said it that White will be a listed as a QB. There are so many possibilities as to who will stay and who will go and where they are going to play, that it is REALLY REALLY pointless to debate it.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not saying they should.
I like those guys. But it basically comes down to a numbers game. The phins have 8 wr’s on the roster and will dress only 5. 3 of those guys have to go and I think Ginn, Turner, White, and Hartline are safe. So who else are they going to cut? Wilford definately. So that leaves Bess, Cam, and London for one spot. Or 2 of those guys are placed on the practice squad. But that leaves them open to be signed by other teams.
My point is
White will not be listed as a WR, whether you like it or not, or you think it is stupid, he will be listed as a QB
He can be our #2 QB and still be used in various other ways if we want. That way we dont waste a WR spot on him.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
my breakdown is we keep all of them...Here is how
Ginn, Turner, Bess, Cam and London as our WRs
Hartline will be used in special teams situations
White listed as a QB NOT a WR
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It could work that way ..
but that is not a typical gameday roster. Most NFL gameday rosters breakdown like this: 2 QB, 3 TE, 4 RB, 5 WR, 8 OL, 7 DL, 7 LB, 7 DB, 1 K, 1 P. That is the 45 man roster, and that assumes that you don’t have one roster spot dedicated to a long snapper. The NFL allows a 46th player as long as that player is a QB. In your scenario, Hartline is still the 6th WR. So on the assumption that White is the 2nd QB, you are still eliminating a roster spot from another position. QB, TE (coaching staff loves 3 TE formations), RB (no team will have less than 4 active RB) and OL will stay the same. So one of the defensive positions are gone. If the coaching staff is OK with that, then your scenario will work.
I always wondered....
What the actually gameday roster breakdown was lol, but yea I do think it could still work
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
they keep 6 wrs IF they only keep 2 qbs. He might be l;isted as a WR but make no mistake he is the 3rd QB
Confidence breeds success, self-doubt breeds failure
Yep we just have to see who makes the cut I think Bess is a lock he is not going anywhere
Winner Of The 2009 Phinsider Predict The Pick Contest
How about this?
You guys talked about White being the #3 QB and being an emergency QB and he sits on the bench and emergency this and blah blah blah
What if he is our #2 QB? Then we can use him in several different roles without sacrificing much. IF he is our #2, one of two things are likely:
1) Pennington is gone this season and Henne is the starter
2) Pennington is the starter, White is #2, Henne is #3, but after next season when Pennington is likely gone, then you have Henne and White both to fight for #1
This also doesnt take up a WR spot for White either, I think this may be the way it works out.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions
CP10 being "gone" is a before this season is a worthless scenario to think about
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Yes but...
We all know CPs time in Miami is coming to an end soon. The trifecta has said this will be Hennes’ team sooner rather than later. I like CP, I really do, but if they feel they can be more of a contender with Henne and White, then CP might be expendable
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
WR's
We will let go of Beck, therefore White is a third string QB. That means that we will have Ginn, Camarillo, Bess, Turner, and Hartline. Wilford of course is history. We could not trade Beck during the draft because the league knows that we do not plan on keeping him. However, I would not be surprised to see him traded during training camp. Somebody is going to want Beck due to injury or poor performance. Remember last year, we did not have any problem trading Mc Cown to Carolina. Let see what happens this week in regard to UFA’s and JT. Everybody always says take the best player available and that is what we did. There was a run on WR’s in the third round and rather than take a chance the regime pounced. Turner has excellent hands and is perfect by the goal line and he does run good routes. Think of how many games are decided by crucial plays whether it is kicking a field goal, special teams, third and one, and red zone offense and defense. This is going to be an exciting year.
White cant be the 3rd string QB...
because if he is then we cant use him the way we want to. The 3rd strong QB is the “emergency” QB and if he is used then we cant bring out starter back into the game.
White should be the 2nd string QB, that way we can use him in various ways.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that is an interesting note
Perhaps if we roll with Pennington to start the season, Henne does in fact take that 3rd/“emergency” QB role until we hand him the keys for good.
I mean, it’s possible that they list White as a WR..but then we have even more WR problems because we have even more bodies than spots.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
by Dave.Phuller on Apr 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody wants Beck.......because he blows.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
must.......trust.......trifecta.....so hard.....to overlook....draft i hate.......aghhhhhhh!
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
I still dont see...
How you hated the draft
We had 2 glaring weaknesses, CB and WR and we addressed them both, White was not a reach cuz it is very likely he would have been gone by our next pick and if we had that pick set to get another CB, then we wouldnt have picked a player like White until round 3, and I can guarantee you White would not have been available at that pick.
It is also hard to say you can hate the draft when we have no clue what will happen with these players, I would say you are jumping the gun.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Same feelings about?
You agree with Rz that you hated the draft?
You agree with me about not seeing how Rz could hate the draft?
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I didn't like the draft.
I feel that the LB and DL positions were not addressed. I want the phins defense to look like pittsburgh’s or baltimore’s 3-4. And right now I don’t see any phins front 7 starters being able to start for either of those teams. Obviously the FO thinks more highly of their players than I do and I hope they are right. But not to address the front 7 defensive in this years’s draft is a wasted opportunity, IMO, because all the experts that I read said that this was a deep talented class for those positions.
To me it signified....
Jason Taylor is coming back, also we drafted a LB in round 7 and then signed an undrafted one today, how is that not addressing the LB positions?
Lets not forget there are still undrafted FAs to sign, so to say we havent addressed yet is false, because you dont know what will happen. Now if we get into the season and the weakness there shows, THEN and ONLY THEN can you say we didnt address it.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It might also signify
That they are giving Eric Walden a chance. Remember it was on this site during the live chat with B. London that he said not to underestimate Eric Walden. Said he was fast and a good player. We also have C. Wake and C. Anderson. So that’s three, and if we add JT again four, OLB’s that have the speed to rush the passer. All of them are young and have just as good of a chance to become something as a rookie drafted yesterday.
Also...
Our defense last year was the reason we won all the close games. It was clear going into this draft that our offense was in more need of help than our defense. Now we draft for offense more and some of you still arent happy
Guess no matter what would have happened, someone would have been upset I guess.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate to say this but...
instead of a trade for Beck that would yield almost nothing, maybe a trade for CP is possible. I know everyone hates the thought, but right now we could get a pretty decent return on CP, who helped us get to the playoffs. Is it possible a team like the Raiders could give us something worthwhile for the most accurate passer in NFL history?
I love CP, but the NFL is a business and if the trifecta feel we are set at QB with Henne and White, CP could be expendable.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions
WOW!!!!
Good observation………That would be a bold move, something this FO is capable of doing…….I dont think it would happen but I wouldn’t be upset if it did. I’m not convinced they would go into the season with a 2nd yr unproven QB starting with a rookie to back him up though.
Which is why I think it is also more likely...
That CP will be there to help mentor both White and Henne
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If he's ok with that role..
He appears to be more like the Kurt Warner type. “I’m going to be good until I retire, and I’m going to start until I retire.”
Unfortunately for him, cooking the noodle (arm) too long might burn him..
Crickets?
Fine.
If he stays as a mentor/coach, I’ll be ecstatic. I’m not even close to expecting it though.
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
by Dave.Phuller on Apr 27, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How much could you possible expect from CP?
Really what is his value? He is up there in age. He has questionable arm strength. He has yet to post two back to back injury free seasons.
Don’t get me wrong. I love CP and think he did an amazing job last season. I hope he does it again. He simply has more value for us on the field then in a trade. When was the last time our QB situation was so stable at this time of year? Let’s not forget that.
Trading Beck
To have traded Beck should have happened Pre-draft because the only probable taker would be Balitomre and Cam Cameron who drafted him in the first place over Brady Quinn.
I like the Turner Pick
I see him as a poor man’s Keyshawn Johnson……Big, Strong, good hands, good blocker and fearless over the middle. Is he a number 1? No but we don’t have a number 1 or do we need a number 1 wr on this team. The way the offense is set up the ball goes to the open receiver. The more this draft sets in the better it gets IMO. The White pick I didnt understand at first but for this FO to take him this early means this guy is the real deal.
I hope he is a poor man's Keyshawn Johnson
and not Mike Williams. If you remember him, he was also compared to Keyshawn and had a lot more of a pedigree than Turner.
Bla, bla bla bla bla!!!!
Honestly, what’s not to like. We just had a draft. We have new players. We have hope. Who cares if I never heard of some of the players until now? Who cares if Tod Kiper and Mel McShay thinks Patrick Turner was a reach? We have players to get excited about. We have something to talk about and look forward to this summer. That is the beauty of the draft. Who cares if they picked the player you liked or not? If that player gets it done on Sunday afternoons then you’ll soon get over it. Let’s see how this thing plays out. Like it, love it. These are your new Miami Dolphins!!!!
My thoughts.....
It’s been a day and I can now focus on who we DID get…not who we PASSED on.
The 1st 3 picks are just fine with me. 2 BIG CORNERS….which is what you need these days.
After actually picturing how the Wildcat might work with White in…i like it. I understand he woulda been gone at 56 too
USC WR looks very intresting….very
OSU guy bothers me just because we have so many wr now…..none a true #1. makes me wish we didnt sign camarillo now honestly
OL guy is a backup to Jake…..and a good project
trading a 7th now for a 7th next yr makes zero sense….they say they had no men left on the board…well u obviously need a backup NT so why not take a flier on a huge body and cut him if it doesnt workout? next yr the 7th will be soooooooooo deep? or ull make a bigger board this time?
overall i trust them 100%…and i refuse to be the poster child for hating this draft…because i see A LOT of great things coming from it.
am i stooooooooooooopid enough to think i know more than the trifecta??? Negative.
Man though….the Patriots made it worse…it makes me angry how good they are atthe draft. Pollio or Poliean or Ponce De Leon..i dont care who he is Bellicheck is the man. ask romeo crennell or fatty fat sticks in notre dame
Regardless…..welcome home NEW PHINS PLAYERS. Get your ring sizes updated….wont need hotel reservations this yr….the big game is at home.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
What do you mean? "makes me wish we didnt sign camarillo now honestly"
Camarillo is now a vet who is thought to be our #1 or #2 receiver, and you wish we didn’t re-sign him because Hartline was drafted? That doesn’t make sense. Hartline will come in a battle for a roster spot, but he’ll likely get cut. I think it’ll be fun to see what happens, though.
We’ll really get a chance to see just how good Bess and London actually are with these young guys coming in who were actually drafted. Its going to be fun to watch.
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
Maybe not cut..
Practice Squad’d?
WR will indeed be a fun fight to watch this off season..
We're all goin' down to the creek tonight; it's gonna be a gas! You're comin', right?
by Dave.Phuller on Apr 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If Hartline gets cut I will wash your car
and Camarillo being ur teams #1 or #2 WR…….means your not an elite team. Stop being a homer…look at championhsip teams rosters….look at their #2 WR…then compare him to Camarillo. Camarillo is a #4.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
#4 is a little harsh
Camarillo is really a Welker type underneath reciever. #3 like welker is on the Patriots Behind where Moss and Gaffney line up on the outside then welker scoots in from underneath in the slot to bail out Brady 100+ times a season. But no one knows how Camarillo will come back from a knee injury. To tell you the truth to hear brady is stronger now than he was pre injury makes me wonder how clean he is. what is he Juicing up with?
Whatever,
For us Camarillo is at least a #2 until someone beats him out. I don’t understand why you’d underestimate him. BTW, Hartline getting cut means not making the regular roster. That’ll be tough for him but he does have a chance.
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
"FOR US"
thats not saying much honestly
I admire Camarrillo’s attiude and effort….but he isnt a top 2 wr on a team thats gonna win a championship. ever.
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
Well,
That’s your right to feel that way, but that fact remains that he is our guy. Neither Hartline nor Turner are going to beat him out anytime soon. So I glad they re-signed him.
"If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."
Coach Paul Bear Bryant
Patrick Turner
I don’t know if Turner was a reach or not. He doesn’t have blazing speed, like was stated above he’s a guy who will move the chains, and think about this: How many field goals did the team kick inside the 20 last year? How many dropped passes in the endzone? I know that they could’ve beaten the Jets in week 1 if it weren’t for a dropped pass in the endzone at the end of the game. Now I’m not saying that Turner won’t drop any, but I do Love the idea of a Larry Fitzgerald type that can go up and get the ball over most DB’s in the endzone.
I woulda been so much happier
if Ramses Barden fell to us and the Giants didnt trade up for him. He supposedly ran a 4.51 at his pro day.. the Giants really did well this draft w/ Nicks & Barden.
Thoughts
“I don’t know about all of you, but I’m going to trust this regime until they give me a reason not to.”
Ernest Wilford / Drafting Chad Henne / Unable to get anything for Beck or at least release him if we don’t want him / 3rd 2nd rd QB in a row, the others still haven’t done anything yet (haven’t even had opportunity and we go draft another one) / Did we really need 2 lower end WRs?, we already have a bunch of good nobodies on our team no need for more / TE situation (using a 4th round or something on TE after we traded a draft pick last year for Fasano?!)
I don’t think we should have drafted 2 WR. We in reality didn’t need any if we plan on keeping Wilford, assuming London develops into at least a solid #2 or #3.
Pat White could be a good pick. I was always scared Ronnie Brown would get injured during wildcat plays. He should execute a lot better. Wildcat was almost becoming extinct at the end of the season. This should help everyone. I can imagine Pennington no longer having to hardly worry about the wildcat, and Ronnie Brown & Ricky will only be playing QB in only certain formations of the wildcat not every single one of them.
I guess I should have thought twice before creating my profile's name.
Keeping Wilford
He will probably be invited to camp, but will probably be outplayed and eventually cut
Let's see....
1-15 to 11-5, AFC East champions, Jake Long, Philip Merling, Kendal Langford, Donald Thomas, Davon Bess, Justin Smilely, Jason Ferguson, Anthony Fasano, etc. etc.
I’ll trust these guys.
umm..
I don’t think we should have drafted 2 WR. We in reality didn’t need any if we plan on keeping Wilford, assuming London develops into at least a solid #2 or #3.
What happens if 2 receivers get injured?? So now they will cut Wilford (it will happen) so they really only added one receiver to the total we had last year.
adding 8 to 10 FAs?
unless the rules changed they dont have the room, 80 max.
"your not even a human being, your a media person" -Micky Knox-
Creator of the(pie in the sky) trade up and "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
LOL
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
i doubt it. i think we wont find any udfa gems this year...just my instincts.
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
plus the 5 we signed
brings the roster to 80
why doesn’t he know how many players there are on the team lol
thats pretty much what he gets paid for, player personnel !
woops Ireland mind fart lol
"your not even a human being, your a media person" -Micky Knox-
Creator of the(pie in the sky) trade up and "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Apr 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
lol probably just one of those things where you are like...ehh its around 8 to 10. when its really 5:15
I believe in John Beck and that Cbdolphin is the man. I'll make you proud LCFF
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon
Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.
Check it out.
Front Paged - Class of 08. and 09.
LOL
I know, hes got alot to think about, and alot of numb-bers lol
"your not even a human being, your a media person" -Micky Knox-
Creator of the(pie in the sky) trade up and "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Apr 27, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Never thought my first Phinsider post would be about Pat White
but this guy could end up being the pick of the draft (though grabbing Smith as late as we did was oustanding). I’m currently a senior at Syracuse University so I’ve been seeing a lot of Pat White the past 4 years. Being a fan of Big East football, I’ve been able to see what this guy really is…a winner. 4-0 in bowl games is nothing to be ignored, especially when 2 of them were BCS games. He just seems to have that “it” factor that you need to be successful in professional sports. I still have nightmares about him and Steve Slaton running all over the conference and if that is any indication of what the Fins will be able to do with him and Ronnie out of the Wild Cat, we are in store for a very exciting season
by Long Island DolFan on Apr 27, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions
White is our future QB
Not WR, not a KR, or anything else. Nobody’s giving him credit as a passer? He performed better than any other qb at the combine! You wonder why the tuna stocked on big WR and a big TE, its because those big WR’s and TE’s become big blockers. I watch whites highlights and am always amazed at how precise he is at reading his blockers. I dont think he’s here as compliment to the wildcat, I think he’s here to build around.
by westcoastdolphin on Apr 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDT reply actions
Antone Smith FSU RB
Undrafted. Shocking. 4.32 40….for some reason the Noles refused to feed him the ball…like 8 carries a game. He had to share time with Leon Washington and Lorenzo Booker so he never got the pub.
Came to FSU as that kid everyone had heard about….the next thing. Everytime he got the ball he did something positive.
He’ll make someones football team once they get him in their building
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
I dont get it.......
I LOVE PAT WHITE…but………….
he has to be a WR/RB…..if they really think he could be the future at QB whats that say about Henne.
im confussed lol. I see White as a nice lil Hines Ward WR in the future…once the Wildcat gets snuffed out…..but our QB?
Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 2009
2-Time Matty Award Winner
OK
This coaching staff (decision makers included) love sompetition, so they went out and got a guy that will give 100% effort and create competition at the QB spot. I don’t think they really drafted him thinking that jhenne is a bust, I think they like White’s atheletic ability, speed, playmaking ability, and not to mention he has a great QB arm. Niow, this just creates competition at the most important postion on the field, so this will just make White and henne better. Parcells always looks for college players that competes continually, and so he just likes to compete and male the players better than they may originally be.
~>JDPhinFan<~
by JDPhinFan on Apr 27, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
its not a rumor anymore
just a mistake
"your not even a human being, your a media person" -Micky Knox-
Creator of the(pie in the sky) trade up and "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Apr 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Mistake?
Dont think so, we now know that Pat White will officially be a QB, I mean why should we ignore what this kid has done in college as a QB?
He is more effective that way, but Pat White also has a fantastic attitude and will be willing to learn anything else that the trifecta asks him to learn.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 28, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
reaching - not really
when people say the phins reached for players – they often havent taken into account that the phins operate off a MUCH smaller draft board then most teams or a so call draft analyst… IIRC the phins said they had about 175 players on this years board. So if you are going off such a small board, because you’ve striken most players due to various criteria then some of the players you draft, who will be at the top of your board, will be seen as reaches on boards that are more broad based and less exclusive. so it’s very likely that pat white was at the top of the board when the phins drafted.
yea the Antoine Smith not being drafted...
Is pretty shocking, hey lets bring him in lol
Also with Beck being cut I think we now have 79 players not 80
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 28, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
Offensive Breakdown
Here is my thoughts at the QB.WR/RB/TE position
QBs: Pennnington, White, Henne
White has to be our #2 if we want to untilize him in many ways, if that is the case I am not sure who is #1 and who is #3. The Trifecta has told Henne this will be his team sooner rather than later, but I also dont see them just cutting Pennington after what he did for us last year. Intriguing to say the least
RBs: Brown, Williams, Cobbs, ???
This is the easiest part of the team to figure out, Cobbs was a great 3rd down back and well Ricky and Ronnie are one of the best tandems in the league. How about a nickname for them lol. Come down to Miami for a little R & R lol. Our 4th back is yet to be determined.
WRs: Ginn, Camarillo, Bess, London, Turner
To me this would be our best formation of WRs. I am tired of people saying we have to have a #1 to be successful, that is bull. I would rather have 5 good receivers that can make things happen. Now Hartline I think will be used on SPC teams only, I love how he boasted about wanting to crack some heads. He can become our new Larry Izzo SPC teams guy lol.
TEs: Fasano, Haynos, Nalbone
The drafting of Nalbone is much smarter than many give the Trifecta credit for. As I have said both Fasano and Haynos are FAs next year and neither are the blocking TE that Nalbone is. Plus the trifecta loves 3 TE sets. We will see how this progresses.
I really think the “overabundance” of offensive players brought in through the draft or signings afterwards is to give every competition, that we us Dolphins fans now that the best are on that field at the start of the season. Parcells is basically telling everyone, ok go out and fight for you job, if you want to be on this team, prove it.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 28, 2009 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
Wow the spelling errors...
Are atrocious, since everyone had been grading lately, I give my last post a B- in terms of spelling lol.
James T Paulson
by Jtpdolphins2009 on Apr 28, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
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