Numbers Can't Lie: Is it too late to get a refund?
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 10:08 AM EST
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PrintOn Tuesday, March 3, 2009, Jeff Ireland and Bill Parcells made the first blatantly questionable personnel move during their tenure as leaders of this franchise by handing over a five-year, $29.5 million contract to Jake Grove.
Sure, the Ernest Wilford signing looks like a huge debacle right about now, and the Boomer Grigsby acquisition was a failure, and it looks like the team may have botched the whole "trade up in the draft to take Shawn Murphy" thing, but those moves were at least logically defendable at the time they were made.
Giving Jake Grove $14 million in guaranteed money to become the Dolphins' new starting center, however, is not.
Let us count the ways in which Grove is inferior to the man he is replacing:
1. Age
Jake Grove is 29 years old. Samson Satele is 24 years old.
Now, 29 is certainly not over the hill, but at that age, you're past the point of being a young prospect - what you see is what you get, at least until you reach the age of diminishing returns. In general, there is no magic discovery of some untapped wellspring of ability for players pushing 30. If they had any promise, they would have shown it by now. Unfortunately, as we will see, Grove has shown nothing worthwhile in his five seasons.
Samson Satele, on the other hand, is a mere two years into his NFL career, and has plenty of good developmental years ahead of him. He started off very strong in his rookie campaign only to see his play decline in his sophomore outing. Unlike Grove, however, Samson is still at the stage where he can be expected to overcome a down season and continue growing as a player.
2. Health
Health is a skill, just like throwing accurate passes and catching a football are. Some players are simply better are staying healthy than others, and this becomes obvious over time.
Jake Grove is not a healthy player. He appeared in 54 games for the Raiders from 2004-2008, out of a possible 80 games (67.5%). He only started 46 of those games (57.5%). He has only played a full season once in his career. There is no reason to expect that to change now.
Satele, on the other hand, is a perfect 33 for 33, having appeared in and started every single game of his career. In fact, after this past season, it came to light that he had played much of 2008 with a torn labrum in his shoulder - a pretty important injury for a center - yet he played through it. Isn't that the type of player Parcells supposedly clamors for? So for all the vague and hazy talk about how gritty and tough Grove is, it certainly doesn't show on the attendance sheet.
3. Cost
Every dollar spent on a player comes with an opportunity cost in that there is then one less dollar to spend somewhere else on the roster. So it makes sense to think that shelling out a guaranteed $14 million to a guy is going to substantially upgrade that position. I mean, it better right?
Well, setting aside the question of whether signing Grove actually does solve anything (it doesn't), let's compare how much each player is costing this team.
Jake Grove will cost the team at least $14 million, and is signed for five years. His contract is scheduled to pay him an average of $5.9 million each season for its duration.
Samson Satele is practically free in comparison. He is what baseball fans would call cost-controlled. In other words, he is still on his rookie contract which was determined largely by draft order and which pays him relatively little, and thus the return on the investment is far greater. Satele is under contract for two more seasons and over that time is scheduled to make a little over $1 million.
Is Jake Grove that exponentially better than Satele, so much as 14 times better? (I can't believe I just asked such a ridiculously absurd question.)
To put it simply, Jake Grove's contract will become, if it isn't already, an albatross for this team (in fact, I think Albatross or Millstone might become my nickname for Grove). Even if you think Grove is an upgrade over Satele, there is no way to justify paying him that much more. And if you think Grove is a downgrade from Satele, well...then it just makes you sad to think how much money this team just threw down the drain.
To make matters worse, I doubt there was a huge market for Grove's services. I'm sure if the Dolphins waited they could have gotten him cheaper.
4. Performance
Ah, performance, the thing that matters above all else.
As always, let's look to the Football Outsider stats to see what they show. Judging by the contract Grove received, you'd expect him to be a dominant player, particularly in run blocking, since that is the perceived area of weakness in Satele's game.
| Year |
GS |
ALY |
Rank |
Penalties |
Sacks |
|
| Jake Grove |
2008 |
12 |
3.64 |
30 |
3 |
2.5 |
| 2007 |
2 |
4.02 |
20 |
2 |
0.5 |
|
| 2006 |
16 |
3.87 |
28 |
6 |
7.5 |
|
| 2005 |
8 |
4.13 |
16 |
3 |
1.5 |
|
| 2004 |
8 |
4.10 |
21 |
4 |
0.5 |
|
| Samson Satele |
2008 |
16 |
4.05 |
23 |
4 |
4.5 |
| 2007 |
16 |
3.86 |
24 |
2 |
2 |
Satele, surprisingly, actually statistically improved in the running game this season. Again, he did this while playing with a torn labrum in his shoulder for much of the season. If he statistically improved under those conditions, why the heck would you not want to see how much more he can improve in year three with a clean bill of health?
Now look at Grove, who is supposedly some fierce warrior of a player who dominates the run game. Ha, that's quite the myth isn't it?
Grove has never ranked better than 16th in ALY, and the two seasons in which he started at least 12 games he finished 28th and 30th in the NFL. In fact, the one season in which he did manage to start every game (2006) was probably his worst season. He is a terrible run-blocker, and yet he is supposed to magically upgrade Miami's offensive line? Oh yeah, and he'll be transitioning from a zone-blocking scheme back to a conventional man block system. Well, it doesn't really matter since he sucks at both. He played zone in 2008 and man before that, so he's proven to be equally inept at both.
Look, I can only say Jake Grove sucks in so many ways. So let me recruit some help. This quote comes from Pro Football Prospectus' 2008 season preview for the Raiders' offensive line:
"The Raiders are still on the road back from the nightmare of 2006, one of the worst offensive line performances in NFL history. That line ruined careers...If injuries strike the line, they could return to the nightmare of 2006, which features names such as Jake Grove and Paul McQuistan."
Suffice it to say, the nightmare returned in Oakland, and Grove certainly played his part.
To top everything off with a big crappy cherry, Grove has the dubious distinction of being named to Scramble for the Ball's All-Keep Choppin' Wood team for the 2008 season. The All-KCW team sets out to pick the very worst players at each position for the season. And guess who "won" the center award? Here's what they had to say about Grove:
"Penalty and sack numbers for centers all look pretty similar. Grove's three penalties and 2.5 sacks allowed don't really jump out at you -- until you realize he started only 12 games. The Raiders were also 30th in rushing up the middle."
It's always great when you switch out a promising youngster for one of the worst players at his position.
By now you all get my point that this was a horrible decision by Ireland and Parcells. There simply is no other way to slice it. There is no area in which Jake Grove is a better player than Samson Satele. Satele is younger, healthier, costs much less, and is statistically better.
I'm sick of hearing people trying to defend this move, and every other move this team makes, by parroting some garbage about how because Parcells decided it, it must be right. Yeah, because Bill Parcells has never made a bad decision in his life. If I recall, the Dolphins still face the decision of losing money just to cut ties with Ernest Wilford.
I'll be the first to agree that Parcells has set this franchise on the right course, and most of his moves look great right now. But as fans, we don't have to, and shouldn't, stop critically assessing every move the team makes and simply submit to the Higher Power that is Parcells.
People make mistakes. Parcells and Ireland already have. They will make more. You are no less of a fan if you openly choose to disagree with a move they make. That doesn't make you an idiot for doing so. People need to stop apologizing for (gasp!) even suggesting that the wrong decisions were made. Why are we tiptoeing around, trying to convince ourselves that every move is a great one, when one comes along like this one and it is clearly not a great move? You don't need to call every critical idea a "just stirring the pot" comment. If the proof is staring you in the face and telling you otherwise, then stand up behind your conviction that the Almighty Parcells made a goof.
That's what I'm doing right now. And hopefully more of you will too.
(P.S. Enough with the Jake Grove scouting reports from his draft. He's 29 years old now. That no longer applies. His "mean streak" clearly never carried over into real NFL production.)
This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.
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Comments
wow
tell us how you really feel. I think that statistics made while on the Raiders may be different that on real NFL teams. I agree we should not just blindly trust everything the front office does, but they have a pretty good track record when it comes to big uglies.
Frequently wrong, but never in doubt.
Phyrmun
Hmmmm
I think just like you do about this signing….Why???
Numbers aren’t everything but I think we should give Satele another chance. But as much as I hate to say this, I think this could turn out to be a good signing with the right training. I mean Tony is a good line coach and they must have seen something to give him such a good offer to keep him in Miami. I want to see what happens and then we can consider it a bust or no..
Through the bad and the good Dolphans always support their team and know that the good is coming and that winning will come back to this loved franchise.
uhh why do you "Hate to say this....?"
seriously……u hate to say this could be a good signing? Do we have some other Satelle, or did I miss when he played so great. This guy is 29…o-line guys can play till 34 easily. I dont care about his numbers….he was playing next to what? what team was he on? who was his coach?
All i say is the way we coach offensive linemen up all the guy really needs is talent and attitude……
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Agreed
still can’t make sense of it. Tuna hates “training room guys”. And this guy spends almost as much time in the training room as he does on the field! Many believe that because of the money he is going to start, but the sign of a good FO is playing the best players regardless of salary! This move is probably going to end up as a very expensive motivational tool for S.Satele and he’s one guy who doesn’t really need it!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by the way
I rec’d it:>)
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
thanks man
appreciate it.
That would be quite the costly motivational tool, wouldn’t it? lol
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
That it would!
But i dont know if it’s lol or cry ol
ha ha :>)
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard
i think aunt finster needs to check your temp.
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Is that a personal attack?
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
naw....I dont think so...is it?
i’m just saying…if u think in the end this will all be a “motivational tool” for Samson “freaking” Satelle then u might have a fever.
Before last week if I asked u who Grove was you wouldnt have known….now everyone is an expert about his entire career and everyone knows exactly what type of player he will be. Satelle played hurt all last year,.,,,,i wish he sat out like Grove and let someone else play cuz he blew donkeys.
if you are comfortable with Satelle blocking Jenkins, Wilfork, etc…..then im shocked.
Satelle is a PASS BLOCKER…..he will make a solid backup and is GREAT insurance….i wouldnt assume he is here next season though.
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Oh yeah
We’ll never make the playoffs with Satele!
and the personal attack was the aunt finster comment!!
I don’t know you and we are not friends and that was a personal attack!!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
lol...i apologize to "aunt finster" for asking her to check ur fever.
i’m sorry….was it the 1-15 season Satelle impressed in or was it his crappy injury plagued 2nd yr that made him so freaking awesome?
Im amazed sometimes….people are SOOOOO pissed we picked Ginn at #9….but Satelle not only cost us a 2nd rd pick…but Wes Welker as well…and he gets a pass for having done nothing in his first 2 years.
He’s OK…fine player….but undersized and not all that great
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
im sure we picked up Al Johnson....
a cards center playing on 1 leg…because Satelle was so dominant.
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Ronnie impressed in 2007
and we didn’t win a single game with him before he got hurt. Just because the team was horrible doesn’t mean every individual player was.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
You call that an APOLOGY!!
I have really enjoyed this community, sharing opinions and talking Dolphins football,and this is disappointing, being PERSONALLY ATTACKED for agreeing with someone else!
And then a MOCK APOLOGY!!! In my eye’s this is the only black mark i’ve experienced here!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
dude i was serious....and thats not an attack
thats humor…i didnt attack anything so why dontcha thicken up ur skin and take some jokin around.
if i personally attacked u…you would know it. Saying i think ur wife should check to see if u have a fever (in a kidding manner referring to me thinking ur opinion is off the wall) is not attacking.
in the future i will know u cant take a joke…and i apologize for ur lack of a sense of humor…
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
(now that last sentence IS A MOCK APOLOGY) just so u know what one looks like
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
uh sorry R24
thought you were referring to me. (aunt finster)
and i dont have a wife.
your original comment was funny sorry i misinterpreted it!!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I feel pretty stupid about it
and i am very sorry about the misinterpretation.
hope there’s no hard feelings.
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
AHHHH i see where u took it lol
naw i was just saying….a loved one needs to make sure u dont have a fever lol…all good and all in good fun…hug it out bitch?
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
lol all better
Really am sorry dude.
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
"Before last week if I asked u who Grove was you wouldnt have known" Rzayo24
That speaks volumes, for such an expensive player, who has started 46 of 80 games!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
ughhh dude i cant name 75% of the centers in the league...
they just dont get attention.
Im not a Grove fanclub member…..so im gonna spend only so much time defending his ass…but COME ON!! relax!!!! we got another lineman and i GUARANTEE he wont suck.
Did you have any idea who Justin Smiley was when he was on the 49ers?
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Yes i did!
Because i pay attention.
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Ridiculous.
Jake Grove comes into the league at age 24, later and older than most NFL rookies. So his age of 29 is slightly less meaningful than a 29-year-old having spent seven-plus seasons here already. He’s spent five.
His production in 2004 and 2005 were not bad. Two sacks over a full season’s worth of games, and this ALY rank jumped up in his sophomore season (even with LaMont Jordan as the starter in ’05).
2006? The Oakland Raiders offensive coordinator was Tom Walsh, a dude who returned to the league after 11 years of running a bread and breakfast in Idaho. A bread and breakfast, dude. Their best receiver that year was Jerry Porter. Obviously he gave up 7.5 sacks, unless you’re protecting Michael Vick, it doesn’t matter who’s back there. The receivers couldn’t get open to save their lives, so the QB had no better option than to take the sack. Or just wasn’t aware enough to throw it away.
In 2007, they turned to Josh McCown, Daunte Culpepper, and eventually, JaMarcus Russell. This is basically irrelevant to his stats because he started two games, but this is indicative of what the Raiders were doing with personnel. I don’t need to say anything else.
Randy Moss went here to die. Look where he is now. Better coaching, better situation, better attitude, better production. Javon Walker went here to die. LaMont Jordan went here to die. Russell has shown nothing and McFadden was injured most of last year. Tells you a lot about the players’ attitude toward injury. It’s welcome when you play for Oakland.
Hell, Baron Davis of the Warriors played a full 82-game season for Don Nelson the first year he came back, even though BD was one of the most “injury-prone” players in the game. His attitude changed. His conditioning improved. He wanted to play for the coach. So he did.
You’re missing the fact that Sparano is a line coach, a motivator. And Parcells is a guy players want to play for. Miami’s on the rise..where was Oakland going? As Randy Moss said, “it was hard to care if nobody else on the team cared.” Now he has plenty of reason to care, and the pedigree to give him a damned good chance to succeed.
Don’t write the guy off before he even plays a snap.
by Dave.Phuller on Mar 5, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
lol i do believe its "Bed n Breakfast"
but i agree with ur take. i think some people are just doom and gloom people who just say “ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh were all screwed this is horrible!”
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Thanks Rz,
but it’s not even that. Grove has been mentioned to play with the “mean streak”, and having won the Rimington Trophy, he clearly possesses the tools. Honestly, why would a line coach and a football guru sign the guy to a relatively lucrative deal if we’re going off his Oakland days statistics? Like someone said on this site a while back..statistics aren’t everything. And clearly, that’s the case here.
by Dave.Phuller on Mar 5, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Center stats?
seriously? people can take their center stats and go fly a kite….so many facotrs go into offensive linemen play. you can say allday he sucks cuz the numbers say they didnt run well up the middle…but does that take into account NOBODY is scared of Andrew Walter or whoever was QB at the time? Does it take into account the guy next to him letting his guy bull rush his ass into the ground and make the tackle? Does it take into account a QB that holds onto the ball 3 sec to long every play? Does it take into account they never had a RB till last year? I wipe my anus with center stats
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
by Rzayo24 on Mar 5, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s always someone else’s fault right?
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
huh?
all im saying is center stats IMO are worthless. Just like 2 tipped balls that become INT’s dont tell the entire story for a QB…nor does saying they didnt run up the gut great….so the center is a suckass
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
ok
But the way you are talking just makes it seem like you think Grove was a good player who deserves absolutely no criticism for the horrendous play that Oakland’s line put forth, especially up the middle.
Everything you said has some merit, but at some point you have to point a finger at Grove too and accept that he also deserves just as much blame.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
and i see everyone point….my main concern is his injuries not his stats or lack there of…..Oakland is football career killerville….i mean didnt Moss have like 3 tds one year there?
I dont know this guy….but what i do know is those 3 smart bastards like him….and when it comes to linemen they have a near spotless record. IMO center is all about size, smarts, and attitude. you gotta be a nasty filthy competitor…i dont see that in satelle (and his hand towel lol)
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Well said
I’m agreeing with all your pionts Rzayo.
Before this week I had no idea who Jake Groves was.
I appreciate a good statistics line probably more than the next guy, but I agree that the center is pretty reliant on having a good guard next to him in order to do well.
As far as I know, the shortest distance between point a and point b. The point B that we are trying to protect is the qb, and that makes center an awfully important position. Without a good one the pocket can collapse real quick.
I was definitely on board the Jason Brown bandwagon. Not because I think I can gauge center ability, but because the so called experts said he was the best one, and he seemed to have a good size-age combo. That being said… I have complete faith in Parcells and Ireland to make the right choice with Sparano’s input.
Creator of the 'Draft Clay Matthews Jr.' bandwagon.
"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." - John Maynard Keynes
by Patrick Bateman79 on Mar 5, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
oh for sure i was on the jason brown wagon...
but hey it didnt happen and we dont know why…for all we know he has a offseason home in st.louis…or he didnt give the phins a chance to go higher….
im on the side of liking we have another good lineman…whether he is great is still to be seen
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
whole heartly agree with this
this belief that the football outsiders line stats is the bible for linemen drives me nuts…
the whole point of attack thing – seriousle how do they know the point of attack for sure?
how do they know which lineman missed the assignment… or when it was the TE’s job to chip the DE so the T has time to get back and doesn’t because of the missed chipe…its all conjecture and there is a HIGH henkie factor to their stats.
what counts is sparano said he likes the guy a lot and to a lesser extent the cable guy said resigning him was a priority… both are line coaches so there must be something there that those guys like.
by W NY Fins Fan on Mar 5, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
well said fellow fin fan!
well said.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
What I don't like about them-
It basically punishes you for having backs that break long runs. If a RB breaks an 11+ yard run up the center- the line gets credit for a 0 yard rush- how fair is that? Have you ever seen a run up the middle that the line had NOTHING to do with? I haven’t seen many- if there is a wide open hole it is because the line busted it open and they should get some credit for it. Maybe cap the yards at 4 but don’t assign 0.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
i did not know that.
interesting.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
well there
were those qb sneaks agaist the phins this year,
by W NY Fins Fan on Mar 6, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
before he even plays a snap?
I guess the 46 games worth of snaps don’t count then?
That’s ridiculous. Just because he’s never played a snap for Miami doesn’t mean he’s going to become an entirely different player just by switching teams.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
With all due respect, PhinPhan,
yes, it does. I’m not bashing your post at all. You make some valid points. And of course, offensive line play is different, but take Randy Moss or Dante Culpepper as examples.
Moss: dominant in Minnesota. Seemed to be on pace for a Hall of Fame bid. Goes to Oakland, we all know that story. Comes out of Oakland, goes to New England. Great system, great coaching, great opportunity. Puts up what may have been a career season. I’m not looking right now. But damn close.
Culpepper: dominant on the same team with Moss. Seemed to make every read, every pass. Great numbers. Moss leaves, he leaves, his flaws come out. He can’t read defenses. He’s clearly made a living out of Randy Moss highlights. Etc., etc.
Sticking with the Minnesota theme, let’s look at who was it. Steve Hutchinson I believe. He comes over from Seattle (who, by the way, now has an AWFUL line, making it fairly clear that even Shaun Alexander benefited from his play) and INSTANTLY makes the line better. Yes they have Birk, but Birk wasn’t even to create gaping holes. Hutchinson makes everyone’s play better. Immediate upgrade.
If Oakland’s line is garbage (which it was), Grove is going to play garbage. He can’t take an entire D-line by himself.
So yes, like Rz stated, center statistics are crap. And yes, like so many examples have proven, switching teams and switching situations completely adjusts one’s play. I don’t know how else to prove it.
At the end of the day (more like next season), either one of us could very well be right. I’m not saying your analysis is going to be wrong. I’m just saying it’s fairly far-fetched to just write the dude off as the Dolphins center when you’ve never seen him play a game with his new unit and the new offense (new O coordinator, new line coordinator, etc.).
by Dave.Phuller on Mar 5, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Your examples of players switching teams
Are of a player going TO THE RAIDERS!!!! A HORRIBLE TEAM!!!!! A TEAM THAT WAS FALLING APART!!!!!
And, a mobile, running QB who blew out his knee and was trying to come back. He never trusted his knee and would panic as soon as he felt a threat because he no longer could run from the threat.
Two bad examples. yes, switiching teams can change a player…but if a great player goes to a horrible team, he becomes horrible.
I can also show you how a good player (Wes Welker) went from a bad team (Miami) to a great team (New England – ouch it hurt to say that) and got even better. You can’t argue that.
Picking your examples doesn’t prove your argument. It just proves that you can pick good examples.
I understand your point. I just disagree with you.
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
by Mosul_DolFan on Mar 5, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
My point was simply an attempt to argue PhinPhan’s statement that “Just because he’s never played a snap for Miami doesn’t mean he’s going to become an entirely different player just by switching teams.” I’m not intending to specify one way or the other – going from bad to good or good to bad. Just attempting to show that players switching teams can quite easily become an entirely different player. And correct me if I’m wrong..but you’re saying the same thing.
well said....
click click boom
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I Like The Post
Especially the stuff about cutting out his draft talk. Seriously. Let’s go back and read the draft talk on John Avery.
That said: I do think that there is a plan in place.
Please, allow me to elaborate on the obvious.
1) The want an upgrade at center, especially concerning size.
2) They don’t want to use any of their first three picks on a center and they don’t feel they can find one who can make an immediate impact later on.
3) They set a budget and stuck to it. Jason Brown went just outside the budget and so they didn’t reach. Instead they sign Grove, despite a price-war with Oakland in their resigning attempt.
4) Maybe they like him?
5) They’re planning on drafting one to develop and plan on getting some mileage out of Jake Grove while the project pick comes together.
6) Grove at guard?
Oooohhhh…. That last one has the crickets chirping.
www.thephinisher.com
All hypothetics of course...
www.thephinisher.com
by The Phinisher on Mar 5, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing like being sick from work and debating the Phins center spot
today….ladies and gents…may be the most meaningless day of my life lol
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
(who am i kidding we scared off all the women in here)
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Are/were there
any women here to begin with?
by Dave.Phuller on Mar 5, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
the 2michelles are members and posted a few times...and a few others came and went...
i think i scared them off with my uncommon good looks. that or the staring from across the blog while mouthing the words “ur dead”…lol sorry thats a Jim Norton standup line i had to use
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
lol I love that line
there’s been a few, but the only one that I can remember lasting very long was Nat, and she was gone shortly after I signed up last year.
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Nat was the best
She kept it real. xfactor threatened her or something and she left.
Ah, where is finsx these days? I miss his insane and ever belligerent loyalty to John Beck.
www.thephinisher.com
by The Phinisher on Mar 5, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
banned
when did he threaten her??
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
There was some stuff...
During the draft lead-up. During those replace John Beck blow-outs that “x” got so worked up about. He called her some names I think.
Makes me smile just thinking about it.
www.thephinisher.com
by The Phinisher on Mar 5, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
lol
Beckie has started more arguments here than any other player on the team I think lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
More PERSONAL ATTACKS
and you couldnt scare a mouse.
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
what personal attack??
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
NICKY!! where ya been? dont worry bout uncle he is touchy today....
kid gloves with finster….mental note.
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
took the weekend off
been going thru some shit, cutting into my phinsider time..
I’ve done most of my damage in CKC’s lately lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
yeah it's straight
in case you didn’t know we will be starting CKC’s at 10pm now so you early birds can participate lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
just for you Rzayo...
the “Husker Amendment” lol
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
lol
maybe we’ll get more out of sleepyhead peezy too lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
10pm!!! COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
I dunno
it sounds like a dubious signing. HOWEVER, none of us has access to the game tape like Sparano, Ireland, and Parcells. Evaluating a Center can be hard to do just by the numbers. I really don’t like his rushing stats, I really don’t like his injury history. That being said- without actually watching him play up close and consistently- I don’t see how we can truly judge this signing. The potential for this signing doesn’t look great- andI will admit you can’t ignore his poor showing in Oakland- but I think it is unfair to write this off as a poor signing right now unless you have analyzed his game tape we actually see him play here – because players are NOT equal on different teams. Good players can become bad, and bad players can become good.
I guess what I’m trying to say is- yes, it is a decision we all should be questioning, analyzing, etc. But calling it a sure fire mistake before he sees the field here is probably not fair either.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
correction
analyzed his game tape OR we actually see him play here
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
Don't forget...
You also overpaid for a right guard as well, Carey the best in the league based on money huh? I love you guys just keep on overspending spending on mediocrity!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA A JET FAN TELLING US WE OVERPAYED
HAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
(CHANGES PANTS SOACKED WITH PEE)
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
lol.....you nut
and I hate my imagery sometimes…..
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
damn
in less than 5 minutes we just destroyed a Jets fan
DON’T COME ONTO THIS BLOG WITH THAT WEAKNESS!
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
We ALL are here apparently
That was fast. Decoders went crazy or something.
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
its all about playing sick from work man...its all about playing sick lol
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
lol
You seem to be good at it.
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
naw im sick....but lets just say if there was a Phins game i would be better instantly
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
lol
My teeth hurt, if it makes you feel any better.
Todya was the third day in a row I was at the dentist. I had to have four cavities filled/re-filled, and they wouldn’t do them all at one time. It hurts now…
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
drink whiskey............lots
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
are u watching me via my Jack n coke webcam or something? weird
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
i go to a college for my dentist work
they shot me to the bone in my jaw 7 times the other day..to the point where i was drinking the stuff….and i didnt get numb….HELL
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
you're immune to numbing drugs?
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
no he isn't
didn’t you see how he reacted to that Jets fan?
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
ouch.....
I just eyeballed my decanter of Scotch reading that…..
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
hey R24
posted apology above
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
hey finster
just get in his face…lol He’s a teddy bear
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
lol
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
instigating lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
whats up husker
it was a misunderstanding on my part.
i feel purdy stupid about it.
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
please just read it:>)
its up where we started
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Is this happening?
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
lol Are we doing this?
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
making me really miss
football season………and destroying a Jets fan is about as easy as boiling water
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
pour
heat
watch.
cmon bro lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
if you want
(sigh) lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
rofl
Funny that we both thought that…
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
Hmmm....
Poor Heat watch…way to support your Miami team there Nicky..
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
Miami Heat basketball is FANTASTIC....
coulda used Grove at center LAST NIGHT lol
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Nicky already said it
Poor Heat
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
we were awesome last night
scored 139!
Wade went off…. again… he’s the best player in the league. You will not convince me otherwise
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
I will state he is one of the best...
I can’t put him above Duncan (Spurs fan…remember) or Howard, but top 3 easy.
Kobe and Lebron are good, but too…arrogant…cocky….over-exposed….somthing like that
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
Duncan is the greatest PF to every play the game
but as of this minute right now, he’s not better than Wade. 4 years ago, I wouldn’t argue at all
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I know...
He’s going down the back side of the hill…but I still love watching him play…
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
ok.....its easier than boiling water.....
lol
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
you really talk out of your ass
still bitter over your “win now” philosophy up there aren’t you? How’d that work out last year? Get extra batteries for your flashlight, the Jets will be in the cellar of the AFC East the next 10 years.
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
must be a Jets fan. Carey is a Right Tackle, but we’ll forgive your ignorance. Your handle proves to everyone that you’re just
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
ahh SPAM......i once ate it for a week str8.....looked better on the way out
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
ugh
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
REally?
A Jets fan talking about overpaying? Brett Favre come to mind. Anyone remember him? Or, was he in NY for such a short time you can’t remember that utter failure. The Jets were supposed to be Super Bowl bound. How did Week 17 taste?
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
The stupid Jets..
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I hate the Jets
*
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
YEAAAAAAAAAAAA JAKE GROVE CONTROVERSY POST!!!!!!!!
wtf happened lol
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
makes me wonder..
if people are going to bitch about a player who hasn’t even taken a snap for us, (in his case snapped for us), what is it going to be like during the season? everyone just going to bitch about every play, putting up 10 charts showing what we should have done and how bad our offseason choices were?
Believe in the Code!
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I said about this deal
I don’t get it, I really don’t like it… but I can’t judge if it’s a good move or not until I see him play in a Dolphins uniform.
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is what made Husker leave once already...
The ability to throw up charts and stats to back up everythign you say can and will get overwhelming. Especially once the season comes back.
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
the weak get weeded out eventually...i roll with the 53 that put on the colors on sunday baby
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
fuckin' a bubba
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
that was dumb of me Mosul......
put that one to rest please. I think they are a nice tool…….but they aren’t the word of God
to each his own.
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
No, I agree with you on this one
I’m not trying to hold it against you or anything. I think you are right in that the overwhelming stats thrown in your face can destroy the feel of the place. I like stats. I think they have a place in here. but, I think we have to make sure that we don’t let them become the end all of everything.
Sorry for bringing it up Husker.
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
no harm no foul buddy!
i just feel stupid about it now……wasn’t in a good frame of mind when I made that stupid decision
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
there's alot of that going around
hate feeling stupid
it reminds me so much of myself!!
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
PTR?
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
um..
should I make a lunchtime CKC? there’s like 9 of us here lol
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
Wouldn't be a bad idea
but, Matty’s head might explode if he checks in and sees a random CKC in the middle of the day
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
he loves it lol
he’ll participate if he shows up
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
by Little Nicky 21 on Mar 5, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Are we doing this?
"The dolphin is one of the fastest and smartest creatures of the sea. Dolphins can attack and kill a shark or whale. Sailors say bad luck will come to anyone who harms one of them." - Joe Robbie, Oct 8, 1965 upon announcing the name of the new AFL Miami football team.
Keeper of the Phinsider Goo Cannon, Intiator of the Max Unger R&R Express Line, and Guesser of "CB"
What is interesting to me about your post
Is the same thing that I believe you and I have gone round about several times already – It is clear that you have an opinion, and then use numbers to back it up…. which is fine. That is what every writer does to some degree, no matter how vehemently they profess to be objective.
But numbers can never tell the whole story and, in my book, telling only part of the story is synonymous with lying. That is the reason that I say numbers DO lie. In this case, you obviously started from the personal opinion of not liking the Jake Grove signing, and then went about using stats to prove your point… and you did that admirably.
You even take the time to attack the credibility of the “trifecta” in terms of their decision making, thereby peremptorily undermining the “trust the Front Office” argument.
So before I say anything else, let me say that… I like it. I like your arguments for the reasons that they are so heavily opinion based, but well thought out and backed up with facts. I like this type of post MUCH more than the ones in which a person will pretend to be objective, claiming to be only “interpreting” the numbers, allowing the person to avoid taking a specific stand and leaving the option open to backpedal if the future results do not match the predicted performance. You have committed to a position and have jumped in with both feet. Kudos!
Now, let me ask you… how many times have you watched Jake play?
The part of the story that your numbers can not account for is the quality of the teams of which both individuals were a part.
Satele’s numbers make sense… two years, two completely different teams. The first team under Cameron was completely dysfunctional, but last year’s team had solid line support, QB leadership, and coaching. Aside from what you would expect to see as regular improvement over his rookie year, I would expect to see drastic improvement in his play simply because of the quality of the team around him. MAYBE, we should even have expected MORE improvement, because of compounding the fact that it was his second year AND he had a much better team around him?
Jake Grove has played for one of the MOST completely dysfunctional teams in the NFL. Ever since the day Gruden departed, the Raiders have been disintegrating into a bunch of talented players with no leadership… no sense of team. A guy like Asomugha can play on an island and still showcase his talent, in spite of the lack of supporting cast. But a lineman is not an island, he can not protect the QB by himself, he can not create running lanes by himself. A lineman can only be truly effective as a part of an effective team. When a team breaks down to the extent the Raiders have over the last 6 yrs (2002, the season following the departure of Jon Gruden, was their last winning season), players usually either don’t play to their potential, or try to do too much. That, coincidentally enough, is also the most likely time for player injuries.
Here is the record on every Raiders team of which Jake Grove has been a part:
2004 5-11
2005 4-12
2006 2-14
2007 4-12
2008 5-11
So how can you assess Jake Grove on his performance, as a part of an Offensive (REALLY offensive) Line, without taking into account that no part of an O-line works without the support and play of all the other parts? It’s like saying your car battery sucks because it runs out of juice when your alternator isn’t working… they work together, or not at all.
So, while I understand that you do not like the Jake Grove signing for your own reasons, the fact remains that he has not ever, as a Pro, had his performance evaluated while playing as a part of a functioning O-Line unit. And until that happens, hopefully this year, it is ridiculous to rely on comparing individual ALY stats to show that he is not as good a player as Satele… or to even gauge his potential. THAT is what Parcells/Ireland/Sparano have to do by breaking down game tape and trying to understand Mr. Grove’s talent and ability. And THAT is why, numbers can only tell part of a story…. why numbers DO, IN FACT, lie.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 1:23 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Guys
MIDDAY CKC UP! THIS PLACE IS RIDICULOUS
http://www.thephinsider.com/2009/3/5/782017/ckc-luncheon-aka-this-plac
"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"
~Co-Pilot of the Draft Alex Mack Bandwagon~
On It's Own
The signing still makes me scratch my head.
The bottom line is that we upgraded our center position from a size standpoint.
I think it all comes down to the Triumvirate deciding that they needed (or saw) more value than a center with the first few picks and also saw no substantial (or immediate) upgrade on Satelle in later rounds.
They had a budget and stuck with its guidelines. Brown was close, but just outside the budget lines. Grove was the best available option left and they HAD to sign him because they HAVE to upgrade the position.
We overpaid. The guys injury prone and maybe not a world-beater. He IS an upgrade on Satelle and that’s it.
www.thephinisher.com
this is a move best evaluated after this season
IF he plays 16 games AND plays better than Brown THEN it is hard to say that we overpaid.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
how so?
Please please please tell me one way in which Grove is better than Satele.
You mentioned size. Jake Grove is 6’4", 300 lbs. Samson Satele is 6’3", 300 lbs. They are essentially the exact same size!
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Okay
But Grove’s weight seems to be all over the place in listings. That aside, It’s about strength and leverage as much as mass. He has longer arms and a bigger bench.
Grove had 31 reps at the combine (I believe Satele didn’t bench – though may be wrong), I’m willing to say he’s still around that figure now.
As someone who is an avid weightlifter let me point out that the taller you are (and the longer your arms are) the harder it is to bench heavy weight for reps. For a 6’4" dude to throw up 490 lbs it takes a lot of power.
I’m still half with you. It’s a lot of money.
www.thephinisher.com
by The Phinisher on Mar 5, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Alright
Both players are going to different teams. Brown going to a poor line after playing on a strong one; Grove going to a strong one after playing on a poor one. If Brown plays to the level of (or worse, outplays) Grove this season, then yes, we overpaid, because the talent surrounding either player should dictate how they perform relative to last season (and seasons past).
Until then, I don’t think we can compare Brown and Grove.
I was thinking the same
give Samson more time to groom,but you dont sign a guy for 5 years to mentor someone if it was 2-3 maybe but 5 years is a long time.
Ahhhh Ta Ta Ta Ta Bye Bye Foy518
by Foy on Mar 5, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Really everyone said Samson was our best pick that season
he played well enough then this year he plays hurt and people are bashing him,I think he deserves another chance at 100% who knows if he wants it he can beat Grove out for it but I still think we could have used the money more wisely
Ahhhh Ta Ta Ta Ta Bye Bye Foy518
Every guy on the field has a chance to start,
they just have to earn it in OTAs/training camp/preseason.
Samson is still on the team, guys...
Maybe Smiley or Thomas won’t recover properly and we’ll be hailing this move come September.
"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
Stop hating
It seems like their is alot of angst with the signing of Jake Grove. If everyone can remember he was the top rated center in that draft class coming out of VT. He had a very solid career at VT. Then he was drafted by the black hole of the NFL. Remember Randy Moss disapeared playing for Oakland but set a single season record the first year removed from Oakland. I know what you are saying well he had Brady but he was a great receiver with Daunte Cullpepper throwing him the ball. In defense of Grove Oakland runs a zone blocking scheme which is completely different than what Sparano runs in Miami. The reason Grove isn’t “bigger” is because he needed to keep his weight down to fit into that scheme. I believe that after Jason Brown from Baltimore that Grove is a good fit for our scheme because he is a powerful center. Just give him an offseason to bulk up and learn a scheme that fits him and I feel that you will all be surprised. I am willing to bet that the lineman around Grove during his time in Oakland were also not as good as what Sparano has assembled in Miami. Give Parcells and Co a little credit.
Grove played zone for one year
Oakland just switched to a zone scheme for the 2008 season. Before that they ran man block schemes. Grove played in both and was bad in both.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
i get it. you don't like grove.
if he sucks this year, you can jump up and down and yell “told ya so”. but until then, all you have is your opinion.
I am content to wait and see.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
and what scheme did they run before that? He claimed to have played in several varieties of schemes under as many coaches in his short tenure at Oakland, since the coaching situation was a revolving door. That’s not good for anybody on that team.
Not to mention their owner is an idiot and can’t possibly be helping the lack of silver and black camaraderie.
Want to pass on a hat tip
to Phin Phan for posting a very well thought out, factually-based argument with a critical eye towards this fairly significant moveby the Dolphins. The latter methods for making a point (using facts & taking a critical, even if it is unpopular, view) are precisely what is needed in more circles.
Regardless of agreeing or disagreeing with the move, the argument and methods used by the OP to articulate the point were/are quite thorough.
Hi Natalya
the legend is true! I’ve heard good things about you……nice to meet you!
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I've also heard the legend that is Natalya, nice to meet you
Free Jailbird
Creator of the "Draft Brian Cushing" truth train.
Mr.LittleNicky "For the record, I'm straight, way to ugly to be gay"
Nicky's Homoertoic comment counter. 1
Thanks so much
I really appreciate that. I agree that even if I don’t agree with someone’s argument, I can only respect it if it is factually-based and rationally thought out.
Is this your first time back here in a while?
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 5, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
holy smokes!
you actually showed up!
=)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
hey Nat
getting ready to wage the good fight again? or just passing through?
by W NY Fins Fan on Mar 5, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Heh, hi W NY :)
So fill me in – what is the good fight these days? The Grove signing? T.O.? The perpetual Penny arm strength rant?
LOL
have you been reading his stuff? he can barely make a post without dissing penne’s noodle arm!
=)
it cracks me up… but it pisses some people off…
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Pardon the expression butThanks for the love y'all :)
It is much appreciated.
Phin Phan – first time in a long time but tons to talk about concerning dolphins football don’t you think?
its nice to know you aren't just some mythical creature, it was beginning to look that way lol
Free Jailbird
Creator of the "Draft Brian Cushing" truth train.
Mr.LittleNicky "For the record, I'm straight, way to ugly to be gay"
Nicky's Homoertoic comment counter. 1
mythical creature=smart Jets fan
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
true story
Free Jailbird
Creator of the "Draft Brian Cushing" truth train.
Mr.LittleNicky "For the record, I'm straight, way to ugly to be gay"
Nicky's Homoertoic comment counter. 1
lol dont i know it!
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
heya!
unicorns, mermaids, and Nat … you were sorely missed around here ya know, glad to see you posting again : )
"Come to the edge." "We can't. We're afraid." "Come to the edge." "We can't. We will fall!" "Come to the edge." And they came. And he pushed them. And they flew. ~Guillaume Apollinaire~
LOL if i were mythical
then my rent would, well, mythically pay itself.
Not to mention I’d be awash in winnings from football pools.
Aint that the truth
Every ones your brother till the rent is due.
Nice to meet you:>)
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Zone Blocking
I understand that he was only playing in a zone blocking scheme for one year but I still think guys are underestimating the affect of playing in Oakland has on a player. I don’t think Parcells would devote the salary they are going to give to Grove if they didn’t feel that he could contribute. Really the only O lineman that you said was a bust was Shawn Murphy. Murphy wasn’t a big name guy coming out of college so it was a gamble that this regime felt would be worthwile considering we really didn’t give up much to get him. I think with Grove sandwiched between Smiley and Satele sounds like a good core to our line. Also with the addition of Grove it allows us to address other needs in the draft. If Grove would have had a bad start to his career anywhere else I would agree with you but do to the fact that he was in Oakland I feel that our coaches can develop Grove into the center that everyone thought he would be coming out of college. All I am saying is don’t jump to conclusions. Worst case scenario we add Grove to our depth at Guard and move Satele back to center.
welcome to the site...i think someone has that name already...but welcome nonetheless
"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins
Personally I would rather not signed Grove at this price
and drafted a wood or mack in round 2 as I believe, as stated here, Satele having 33 games experience in just 2 yrs as a starter and having played with a shoulder injury all year has a far greater upside though having Grove there might be the motivator he needs to move up a notch
It's not about experience..
It’s about the point of attack, the mean streak, the muscle mass. He just doesn’t have it.
I gotta question about the money comparison?
Is the comparison based on Satele not upping his contract? If you’re gonna hold Jake to 5 yrs you gotta figure Satele for five. as well. What if Satele does well as Grove and asks for 6m/4y or 5? Are you satisfied or do you think they’re both making too much flow?
Also, why’s it strictly a contrast with Satele? Both play G so now there’s potentially 4 players in the mix.
I think they’ve watched a whole lotta film measured the market and felt this adds a working mix of depth/talent/competition/time to the line – until another Long comes a, um, long.
Larry Little and I both wore 66 in our football careers. I think that means something.
I, Tunaflipper, am the creator of the "Draft DJ Moore Bandwagon"
Nice one TF
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on this one
Especially with Jason Brown going for just a bit more. I wasn’t a fan of signing Brown anyway, but it made no sense to pass on him and then sign Grove.
IMO, the front office panicked. They decided they had made a mistake after passing on Brown, and then tried to make amends by making another one -overpaying for Grove.
Brown didn't go for "just a bit more"
add in the 6 million guaranteed difference. And i respect your opinion……..but please give a time when Bill Parcells made a “panic decision”?
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed-
I don’t think any decent team even worries until the draft is over- you just move the position in question up your board.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
Excellent Post PhinPhan
I did a lot of the same research on Grove. I am not that impressed. Like you, I don’t get the signing. With a salary cap you have to evaluate not only the money, but the improvement the money buys. If Grove is only fractionally better than Satele, then it is a bad deal.
It is the same argument with Carey. As far as I can tell he is the highest paid RT in the league. Both he and Grove have to be pro bowl players now to justify the money.
One other thing. Satele’s rookie year he was the center on a line with the leading rusher in the league, Ronnie Brown, before he got hurt. And that line was considered a lot worse than last years line.
Not quite-
Brown was the leader in yards from scrimmage, because of his pass catching. He was still near the top in rushing – 7th in YPG and I think like 8th if you only count backs with more than 50 touches.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
5.1 per carry though
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
No doubt-
he was a beast. It was a totally different style of using him though.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
I got a question PhinPhan in MA
Why don’t you participate in all the other post on the board? I respect your point of views and work that you put into your post, but it just seems to me, you just respond to your own post. Usually aggressive if others don’t agree with you.
“I can only respect it if it is factually-based and rationally thought out.”
I took that one kinda personal. There are more things to football than numbers. There is heart, love of the sport, the smell of pigskin, the enjoyment of a fan roar when your team scores or makes a good play. I am not, nor will not feel obligated to “prove” my words because of how I feel about something.
Again, total respect for what you add to the Phinsider, but lighten up a bit. Otherwise I’m gonna start calling you SpockBoy in Vulcan. : )
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
he's either a vulcan
or an accountant.
;-)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I love all that stuff too
Trust me, I didn’t get into this sport so passionately because of numbers. That developed over time. I love all those aspects of the game that you talked about, but those things pertain to my personal attitudes toward certain players or styles of play. When it comes to being honest about my team though and critically analyzing it though, I’m not going to let those things get in the way because quite honestly most teams Miami plays also have heart and the passion to win. Just because I love guys like Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor and Dan Marino for being tough, passionate players, I’m not so naive to think that the opposing team doesn’t equal that level. So I look to things that can actually be differentiated. Otherwise it’s just spinning your wheels, a he-said she-said of whose team has the bigger hearts. That conversation is pointless to me as an analyst, and it doesn’t make for good discussions since no one is going to be swayed from the preconceived notions anyhow.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 6, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
geeeeezus dude.....
you’ve got the personality of a paper clip. Unbutton your collar, let the tie loosen, scratch your balls and drink a beer for God’s sake. My impression is…..you’re the guy in the suite seats, eating shrimp and crab claws, and most of us here, have a fat belly from tailgaiting, and now are sitting with our “equals” watching our beloved Dolphins. Not giving a rats ass about YPC’s or YAC’s. Just watching our team make plays, have fun and win a football game. Sorry some of us are so “lowbrow” for you….But I’d rather be a “Joe 6 Pack” with passion…..than a air conditioned suite seated stat geek any day of the week.
Whatever trips your trigger though.
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 6, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
haha
Well, I’m pretty sure I never claimed or insinuated any kind of superiority. So that’s one you man. You see stats and the people who like them a certain way, fine. Nothing I say or write here will ever change that. I get it.
Trust me, I still live and die with this team just like everyone else here. I don’t care about the numbers when I’m watching the game, but midweek and offseason when I’m trying to figure out what the best moves are, you better believe that’s where I go to.
Check out my Dolphins site for news and analysis: http://www.phinaticism.blogspot.com
by PhinPhan in MA on Mar 6, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
no.....you just do it naturally
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 6, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
Come on guys-
lets not have a pissing contest. You both obviously have a lot of passion for the team or you wouldn’t be up at 1 a.m. arguing about a Center 99.999999% of the planet has never heard of. Some people have mathematical minds, some don’t- it doesn’t say anything about a guys personality. I’ve never sat in a suite in my life, and I even smuggle my own booze- I can’t help it if I like to quantify my opinions though.
Likewise- just because somebody wants to get away from things like numbers and analysis with football and don’t want their hobby to mix with something they did in school- it doesn’t mean they are stupid or ignorant- they just want to be able to have an opinion and leave it at that. You can’t blame anybody for just wanting to trust the Parcells overall track record and say innocent until proven guilty.
People who don’t care about stats won’t, and people who do are going to. If you know somebody isn’t going to listen to your argument- don’t waste your time arguing with them is my suggestion- but if you do lets keep it civil and not go around questioning peoples intelligence or fanhood.
"Right now he’s got to be one of the best players in America. He’s got the best first step . . .What he did to prepare for that game is what legends are made of." Urban Meyer on Percy Harvin
Lonely Leader of the Percy Harvin Bandwagon.
they are at opposite ends of the spectrum
PhinPhan is all about the numbers, Husker is all about the love the team.
=)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
ROFL
“paper clip”
husker you say some funny stuff… =)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
LMAO
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
and i like beck
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
it's all a gamble...
Car insurance, health insurance, life insurance…it’s all a gamble. We need offensive line insurance, and hey, there isn’t a lot of veteran “talent” out there at a median O-Lineman cost. Does Grove seem like a great player or the answer to any of out center questions? No. Does he seen like a complete waste of money? No. Like all gambles we just have to wait and see how the cards play out.
What this purchase says to me, according to a little research, is that we need improvement at depth…which surely we at least have that. It says we are probably not going to address the O-Line in the draft…we gave Sparano a bunch of youth to work with last year. It also says that there isn’t much else out there that matches our needs and money. You have to pay a 5th year starting center a decent salary to come play for you…period, regardless of whether or not he is drawing interest from other teams. Does that mean that we are getting the same dollar value from him than we are from Satele or any of the other young guys? No. Are you always going to get what you pay for? No. Let’s just hope that the guys turns out to be a better, stronger, healthier starter than he has been in years past. Do I think there is a good chance of that? Yes. Could he be a complete bust? Yes. Let’s wait for the cards to be played.
nice rant......and well said
lol, that was a good read
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
so in other words...
you don’t really know how this deal is going to work out until it works out?
Makes sense to me.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
well put H3
but when you buy a car thats been in a wreck, slap some tires on it give it a paint job, that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been in a wreck! That car may end up being the most dependable car you ever owned, and it may be a piece of crap, but i still dont want to pay top $ for it!
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 5, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
FA is more like investing in the stock market....
You invest the majority of your money on stable consistent performing stocks based on past history. While there may be fluctuations, you know what you are getting, a steady return. Crowder, Carey, Bell, and Wilson fall into this category. You know exactly what you are getting for the money you are investing
If you have a little extra money, then you might take a gamble and invest in an upstart company. Here you might win big or lose the entire investment. That is Grove. There is not enough history for me to judge the type of player he is. I have doubts about how good he is, can he stay healthy, his age, all the things that PhinPhan says. The question that I keep thinking about is why take the gamble?
because you're good at it....
would you play Poker with Parcells?
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
In a heartbeat. I am really good a poker!
If you can’t identify the worst player at your table, it means its you! lol
parcells would dust you.......
lol
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
by HuskerDolphin on Mar 5, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Here's how it would go,
ct1361: Hey Parcells, you think you’re a gambler?
Parcells (looks bored): Yeah.
ct1361: I’ve money that says you aren’t so hot. How about a game of heads up NLHE?
Parcells: Ok, blinds are $200/$400 and the min buy-in is $40,000.
ct1361: All I got’s a twenty.
numbers can't lie
Since you are so confident of whatever the hell you are blogging here, why don’t you go to Davie and apply for the position of VP Foot ball Operations or GM, maybe u can do better. C’mon, dare… go for it, see what u can do.
lol
i applied but they just laughed at me.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 5, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
one other thing here
I do find throwing this kind of money at a center position and one where a guy was at the very least average when he played a whole season hurt… just didn’t see where that extra 5 mil a year couldn’t be used in other areas where there are SERIOUS issues…
but having said all of that there are two assumptions that everyone seems to make regarding next years dolphins….
1st Smiley is going to be ready for camp and game 1
2nd thomas is actually going to be good
and the basis for these is sparano said both guys are healing and on scheduled recovery….
well smiley had two injuries and IIRC both required surgery… the reoccuring shoulder/arm injury of his and the other unmentionable ugly thing…. well they are both serious and it was pretty clear that the fins had very little depth at guard last year… IIRC sampson was drafted as a guard and Cam made him a center to beef up the guard size with hadnott… So the move provides some serious insurance for smiley at LG and needed depth….
Also everyone is still assuming thomas is any good – does anyone have proof – not really – there was conjecture that he could be good, but he was raw and was better then everything else they had…. well the season proved that the ‘everythign’ else they had wasn’t very good at all…
So maybe, just maybe , they figure to move sampson to RG while the raw thomas develops….
and all of this at a price that was at or a little below decent guard money….
in effect there is likely more to this move then grove/satele
Satele did prove he is tough and that he can play through the injury, but was it because he wanted to or because he HAD to? We had no depth at center whatsoever and this move provides necessary depth at both center and guard, as well as provides Satele with a veteran tutor.
This brings me to my actual point: the front office has made a statement, and that statement is Samson Satele is Miami’s long term solution at center. Look at it like this: Miami chose to bring in a veteran, rather than draft a center early. That speaks volumes on what they think of Satele. We know that this regimes philosophy is to build through the draft, while giving the young players the necessary veterans to lead them and help them grow as football players. With proper mentoring, Satele will be much better off than he was without. Grove is really just a $6M/yr gift to Samson Satele.
Signing Grove was definitely the right move. Somebody tried to argue that the 1.7 Million difference between Grove and Brown was only ~ 4% of the cap space. How many players are on the team again? 53×4 = 212% of the cap space! 1.7M could pay for 4 rookie FA pickups, which we know this FO is fond of. That doesn’t seem so negligible now.
What are the options...?
So seriously – what were our choices? I’ll jot down at least some of the obvious ones…
1 – Keep Satele and count on him improving from last year as a younger player reaching his ‘prime’
2 – Sign a FA center other than Grove – say Brown or even Birk
3 – Sign Grove
4 – Draft a player in say the first round like Mack
Which of these would have been most satisfactory to fans?
I have confidence in our FO obviously but this Grove signing is a bit of a head scratcher. The numbers, as well documented by Phin Phan in MA, certainly don’t support the move. More troubling is that Grove has had a hard time staying on the field and that’s not exactly something you can coach a player on, ala, say, route running.
So being a dolphin fan, I want the move to work – that goes without saying. Still would we even be having doubts if they’d signed Brown or Birk instead?
well said.
i never really liked Birk, so i’m glad that didn’t happen, but i was absolutely pulling for us landing Brown. He was really the only FA signing that i wanted. That being said, we didn’t go that way… probably just because of the salary slots they have on the line, and the fact that so many of the line contracts are new. There must have been an upper limit kind of set in stone that the FO decided they would pay for a center position.
whatever… I’m glad they can use the 1st rd pick on another position. i think grove + 1st rd pick at other position = upgrade. I also would not have had much respect for the FO if they had already decided Satele was not the guy to help get the running game going… and then they chose to do nothing about it. I share everyone’s concern about his injury history, but I am confident he is a talent upgrade for the run game over Satele. If he can stay on the field, I believe we will field one of the best lines since the Webb days… and that line was primarily a pass blocking line.
I am excited to see the kid play.
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Nice post Nat
I’ll take #1 please, and not against bringing someone else in but, Groves injuries trouble me like you said" a bit of a head scratcher". Thats all I’m saying! :>)
Thats Mr aunty finster to you
PERSONALLY ATTACKED
"Dyin ain't much of a livin boy"
The outlaw Josey Wales
creator of the "draft B. J. Raji" bandwagon
by uncle finster on Mar 6, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
this has to be one of the best debates so far this year
"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"
-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic
oh, without a doubt
it was so good it drew Nat out of hiding!
;-)
-LCFF
by LeftCoastFinFan on Mar 6, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
BELIEVE IN THE TRIFECTA
Although this has Ernest Wilford written all over it, they gotta see somethin we dont, right?
i'm straight nightmare
Creator of "the natural" Alphonso Smith Bandwagon
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!
Grove is good. Satele is decent.
improvement period.
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado
If that's the case
If that’s the case, we most certainly blew it.
If Grove is good, then what does that make Jason Brown, who is younger and better and only moderately more expensive? You see what we mean?
If J. Brown had never hit FA, we probably wouldn’t be having this debate. We’d be saying “hey, they overpaid, but they got the best player out there.”
The problem is, that wasn’t the case.
we blew it cause we improved our team...
J Brown is very good.. we could get him and improve on a WR or CB or anywhere else.
In Bill we trust..
Improvements little at a time.
We paid Grove what he’s worth?? We didn’t pay Jason Brown b/c he is aksing for more than he’s worth and more importantly more than we could afford.
I’m not even sure what the arguement is here, Why is everyone hellbent on getting better with a good player like Grove..
Bill,
keep paying good players to be on our team, and try an improve on each and every position so that we are a legitimate contender in 2-3 years.
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado
I meant to say,,, If we got Jason we couldNT afford to improve else where...
"I never met a man I didn't want to fight"
Lyle Alzado
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