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Around SBN: Post-UNC Thoughts

The Weakness of the Wildcat

I like the Wildcat. But the Wildcat has three main weakness:

  1. Third and Long
  2. The ability to consistently pass
  3. Playing from behind, where the Wildcat grind-it-out methodology plays into the hands of the leading opponent burning valuable clock and shortening the game.

The remedy is to have some kind of shotgun spread with 3 and 4 wide to try to catch up, but it makes you vulnerable to sacks with a rather immobile QB since the pass rush is just pinning the ears back and attacking. It also plays to the weakness of your OL which is run-blocking as opposed to pass-protection.

Solution: The Ricky and Ronnie Double Wing Spread

I would advocate making Patrick Turner active for this multiple wide-receiver set for fresh bodies and I think he could do some great things in it. Combined with the Wildcat packages, it could give a dynamic passing attack complement to the Wildcat.

What it looks like:

DB _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _GC

_ _ _ _ _ _ _RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB _ _ _ _TG

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ CH

Ricky and Ronnie on the wings helps our run-blocking line not get beat on the edges and they are both excellent receivers. If desired, you can send all 5 into the pattern to get a mismatch if you make a quick throw. I would also advocate ALOT of shovel-passes to either Ricky or Ronnie up the middle to take advantage of the defense spread out and the superiority of the run-blocking of our line as opposed to pass-blocking, especially on a overload outside blitz call on one side. As far as depth, Harline and Turner would sub on the outsides and DB or GC would be fine in the slot, though Kory Sheets would help stretch the defense from the slot. Hilliard is the sub for either RW or RB, but obviously not as explosive. Kory Sheets would bring some excitement as a shovel-pass recipient into the middle. I would also have Teddy Ginn in motion a lot to find a mismatch on a 4th or 5th corner on one of the sides. I think I have actually seen the Fins dabble with this formation, but they have never used this frequently as a base offense alternative. I would recommend that. Lots of shovel passes to Ronnie and Ricky up the middle. Even if the defense is expecting it, they still have to contend with our superior run blocking and our superior backs. It is a safe throw and almost like a handoff.

Just trying to find ways to maximize the  unique skill sets of our personnel

Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated...

Poll
This formation
is flawed and won't work. Not worth the additional practice
13 votes
should be used once in a while, but not more
20 votes
should be used as a base offense alternative to the Wildcat
14 votes

47 votes | Poll has closed

This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.

0 recs  |  Comment 45 comments

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Im

too stoopid to know WTF ur talkin about.y

I say snap it to me and let me do my thing

Phinsider Hall of Fame Class of 09' / 2-Time 09' Matty Award Winner

by Rzayo24 on Oct 23, 2009 3:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Simplifying "Sammary"

There are two different personnel groups and two different formations
1. Henne Personnel [Traditional base and Double Wing Spread formations]
2. Thigpen Personnel [Tomcat Spread and Wildcat Thigpen Variant]
For each personnel group, you can alternate formations to one that is more advantageous for certain downs and distances.
That’s it. I’m done.

Below is a schematic summary of the four formations (optional reading):

Henne Personnel [Traditional 2 back, 3 wide set]
DB _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _GC
_ _ _ _ _ _ _RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB _ _ _ _TG
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ CH

Henne Personnel [Double Wing Spread]
DB _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _GC
_ _ _ _ _ _ _RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB _ _ _ _TG
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ CH

Thigpen Personnel [Tomcat Spread]
GC _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _JH
_ _ KS _ _ _ RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _TT

Thigpen Personnel [Wildcat Thigpen Variant]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ JH LG C RG RT LT_ _ _ _ _ _ GC
KS _ _ _ _ _ RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ TT
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I messed up the Henne Personnel [Traditionl 2 back 3 wide set]

not that anybody cares…

Should look traditional like:
DB _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _GC
_ _ _ _TG _ _ _ _ _ _ CH _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RW

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.
No hating on Jay Fiedler, please.
Official Back-Up Phinsider LOL'er.
The one and only "ho-nerd"

by samdaman on Oct 24, 2009 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the wildcat

is used but a mere 10 to 15 plays a game there need not be anything to “balance” it out

Confidence breeds success, self-doubt breeds failure

by Blaze453 on Oct 23, 2009 8:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As I see it we seem to be trending towards using it more and more every game. Plus this

formation would lean towards what we are good at while getting all our best weapons on the field at the same time during crunch time.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Wildcat

was run 19 times against The Jets.

Driver of the Make David Lee OC Bandwagon
Repentant Former Driver of the Trade-Ronnie-Brown Bandwagon.

by joel311 on Oct 23, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would have actually guessed it was higher than that.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dallas your like a mad scientist.

I imagine that you have this giant white board in your house where you work on these things all day long. I like this formation as we need to be able to pass more at times and this really lends to our strenghts while keeping the defense off balance.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 9:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

lol yea

Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.
No hating on Jay Fiedler, please.
Official Back-Up Phinsider LOL'er.
The one and only "ho-nerd"

by samdaman on Oct 24, 2009 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still waiting

for the wishbone to come back

by NC Mike on Oct 23, 2009 10:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That may be a very long wait brother!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe not if some coach figures out what time period we got the WC from.

They might start using formations thought to be obsolete today.

OFFENSE- Protect the Quaterback at all costs
DEFFENSE- Get to the Quaterback at all costs
I HART DOLPHINS
Nobody dies a virgin, Life fucks us all

by kewlguy on Oct 23, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well the wildcat is a modern version of a run heavy single wing formation. The modern

version of the wildcat came about in the late 90’s at Kansas. It was later taken to Arkansas where David Lee was before he brought it to the Phins. So basically the wildcat as we know it is fairly new. The wishbone was run in the 70’s and 80’s by various college programs with the exception of OU and Nebraska that used it in to the 90’s. I belive that NFL teams have toyed with versions of it but it has never really stuck.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the WC has been around scince the 20s actually

ND ran it.

OFFENSE- Protect the Quaterback at all costs
DEFFENSE- Get to the Quaterback at all costs
I HART DOLPHINS
Nobody dies a virgin, Life fucks us all

by kewlguy on Oct 24, 2009 6:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

YOUR WAIT MIGHT BE OVER!

It’s not the pure Southwestern Conference Big 8 half-shirts Wishbone triple option, but I think it qualifies…
Instead of the QB running the option and getting killed in the process, a scatback/slot receiver ((Kory Sheets, or Ted Ginn, or even Ricky Williams) runs across the formation taking an optional handoff from the QB in the wishbone Fullback spot.
The QB then retreats while performing a second option play action to one of the “halfbacks” (or you could have the HBs come forward and cross in front of the retreating QB) and sets up to pass to three receivers behind a two-back protection:
Scheme below:
WR _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _WR
_ _ _ _KS- – - – - – →
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ CH
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
RW _ _ _ RB
Note: if you put Ricky in the slot, then use Lex or Kory Sheets in the LHB position.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 24, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You truly are a mad scientist there big D!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 24, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is very similar to Houston Oilers

Bum Phillips ran an offense similar to this in Houston. It worked well for a time, but was later stopped by defenses. I like the idea can really play into the Wild Cat Mis Direction offense, but I am a fan of what the Phins did last game against the Jets. Put in a lot of Double TE packages to delay and spread the blitz out against the OL and to give QB time to throw.

The Patriots Suck

by k2oconnor on Oct 23, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes

we were pretty effective running Wildcat 2.0 with 2 TEs. Run it down their throats till they stop it, throw in some long bombs to keep them honest and 1 or 2 65 yd screens to Ricky doesn’t hurt either.

CP10 and P.Cobbs get well soon
Miami Dolphins 2008 AFC East Divison Champions
"I likem me some UDFAs"

by Phintastic on Oct 23, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd still like to see Ricky and Ronnie worked into the passing game more

we don’t have elite TEs nor elite WRs, but we have elite RBs.
It would be a shame if all they did was block or catch dumpoff passes in situations where the Wildcat was on the bench.
Hypothetically speaking, if you could get Ricky or Ronnie downfield and catch a pass, there’s a better than good chance that they could break a tackle or simply run away from coverage and score.
To accomplish this, you need to flood the secondary with as many receivers as possible to get Ricky or Ronnie matched up one-on-one or if against a zone, in space.
If covered by a DB, they break the tackle and go. If covered by a LB or DE, they just run away.
They have great receiving skills are are way underutilized in my humble opinion.
Thus the reason for the use of this formation FREQUENTLY.
Imagine seeing Ricky/Ronnie running loose in the secondary like he did against the Jets,
but doing it REGULARLY off of
shovel passes in the middle,
handoffs/pitches off of shovel passes,
short passes to the flat and flair passes out of the slot,
wheel routes off of fake handoffs.
In case they get tired, you’ve got Hilliard (whose hands may be suspect) and Sheets who has
great potential for these kinds of plays getting LOTS OF TOUCHES.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you have to be careful if your trying to flood the field with both WR's and

having both back in the pattern. Someone has to stay in and pass block. I think we should be running a lot more screens to our backs. We say the one two weeks ago that Ricky ripped off for a huge gain.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True That...

The beauty of this formation is that the Wings (running backs) can stay in and block, Pretend to block and go out, Chip the DL/OLB and leak out for a screen, just go into the pattern from the wing, or take a shovel pass up the middle.
The Fins can slide the protection to the side that the Wing goes out, and Henne can roll out the opposite way.
There is a great deal of flexibility.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would work. Having a back slide off his block and making the reception

is a screen play assuming all the blocking is to that side.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bum phillips had earl cambell and kenny stabler

i’m not dissing your players but those are 2 hall of famers

by simone219 on Oct 23, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

SCREENS....I want more!!!...Put..

Chad as passer in the wildcat ..move RB,RW as usual, but with Henne and the ball, where’s it gonna go…I’ll tell you..Its gonna go 5-10 yards down the field, and we’re gonna play Joe Montana ball….1st downs/clock kill/points. Win….

www.zerothirteen.com

by zero13 on Oct 23, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think your correct.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Phase 2: Minimal substitutions to maintain Passing Effectiveness, yet...

start to morph into Wildcat Personnel so that this formation can be shifted into and back out of the Wildcat.
Is it possible without losing Wildcat effectiveness? Let’s see…
Substitute Tyler Thigpen for Chad Henne.
Henne is the future and you do lose some raw talent, but gain some athleticism/mobility and NFL game experience.
Yes, Tyler Thigpen can pass and do it pretty efficiently. He can also run and catch…more on that later.
Substitute Joey Haynos for Davone Bess (move JH to GC’s spot).
Lose Bess’ clutch hands and quickness, but gain some blocking and size. Camarillo/Bess = similar players.
Substitute Kory Sheets 5-11 208 for Ted Ginn 5-11 180.
You lose a little speed and some WR skills, but you gain some wiggle and much more power in running/blocking.
Formation UPDATED looks like this (called the TOMCAT Double Wing Spread Variant):

GC _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LT LG C RG RT _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _JH

_ _ KS _ _ _ RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _TT

Can we still pass effectively? Tyler may not be as careful with the ball, as accurate, or as polished as Henne, but he does have experience with the spread in KC, though he would have to spend some quality time after practice with the receivers to get use to them.
TAKE HOME POINT: If it were third and long (like it was for KC many times last year), we could convert with this personnel by traditional pass, by QB draw, by shovel pass, or by screen.
On a side note, I’d love to see some bubble screens to Kory Sheets (KS) who might not fall down on first contact like Ted Ginn.
USING THE SAME PERSONNEL WITHOUT SUBSTITUTION:
Here is a form of the Wildcat (call it the THIGPEN WILDCAT VARIANT).
Would it be an effective WILDCAT formation? You tell me.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ JH LG C RG RT LT_ _ _ _ _ _ GC

KS _ _ _ _ _ RW _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ TT

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ RB
Here Tyler Thigpen is an inferior blocker to Patrick Cobbs, but he does have some size (6-1 224) and some mobility.
The “Wildcat back” can be either Kory Sheets or Ricky Williams in motion right. I’m dying to see Sheets come around the corner at 4.38 speed. If KS comes in motion and Ronnie keeps, he’s got some blocking backside with Haynos and Ricky leading interference.
On a pass play, Thigpen can run downfield and catch a Ronnie Brown Bomb or take a flea-flicker flip from the Wildcat and pass/run and he would still have some pass-blocking available from the right side of the pocket.
It may be not be the best Wildcat variant, but I think it will work EFFECTIVELY as a Wildcat unbalanced formation.
Ladies and Gentlemen, it is now possible to morph from a passing formation to a Wildcat
WITHOUT MAKING SUBSTITUTIONS
TOMCAT spread and THIGPEN WILDCAT personnel are IDENTICAL.
On one down, you can line up in a passing formation on the next down you can line up in a power running formation and if you no huddle it, the defense CAN’T SUBSTITUTE! Pass or Run using Wildcat Personnel.
Here’s how it might apply in a game situation.
Start with Henne in the RnR Double Wing Spread (see orignal fanpost)
Run a few plays, sub in Thigpen, Haynos, and Sheets for Henne, Bess, and Ginn.
CONTINUE to pass for a couple of plays to get into 2ND AND SHORT or 3RD AND SHORT:
Without a huddle, morph into the Widcat and run a few Wildcat plays or alternate to a passing formation
as the down and distance dictate. Whenever you get in a 2nd and short or third and short situation, you can implement the Wildcat immediately without huddle in its “best-case” scenario.
Anytime you need a shot of Henne, bring back the substitution package Henne/Bess/Ginn.
BTW you can also run a traditional two-back, three receiver set with the RandR Double Wing Spread personnel.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL I love your ideas Dallas but you have way too much time on your hands!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate that you actually read what I write and make a comment

I also appreciate your “sammaries”

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 23, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I can always muster the strength to read what I am going to actually comment on.

It does only seem like the respectful thing to do when someone takes there time to write it. Plus your my neighbor. Well as close as I am going to get on this site. I do not always have the energy to post a sammarie for Sam every time just because hes too lazy to read it.

You do a good job on those. I dont know that everyone of them seem totally viable but they all make me think and sometimes even teach me a little something.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 23, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I Got A Crazy Idea

If it’s third and long, then let Chad Henne throw the ball.

If we’re down by a couple of scores (more than 10 points) then let Chad Henne throw the ball.

If we’re dead even with a team, then continue to punch them in the face with our running game. Wildcat or otherwise.

Hmmm… Wait. That’s what they’re doing now.

I run a lazy, booze addled & thoroughly unprofessional Dolphins blog: www.thephinisher.com.

Official Grand Poobah of the Chad Henne fan club and bandwagon. Some of you have a lot to prove before you can climb on.

by The Phinisher on Oct 24, 2009 12:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And is it good enough?

For the Sad Sack Buffalo Bills…YES
For the overrated Jets Defense…YES barely
For the New Orleans Saints…PROBABLY NOT
For the Indianapolis Colts and Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis chasing Henne around the pocket where he throws a desperation pass to a well-covered Ted Ginn…PROBABLY NOT
Facing playoff teams with good secondaries and dynamic offenses…PROBABLY NOT
I don’t have a problem with stay-the-course business-as-usual don’t-rock-the-boat same-old-same-old philosophy. It’s safe.
But we’ve got pass defense issues and we lack play making WRs and elite TEs.
We have a killer run formation that we just can’t use under certain circumstances.
When the same-old-same-old doesn’t cut it what do you do? Plan for the next over-rated franchise WR in next year’s draft or do something creative with your personnel right now?

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 24, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay

And Henne played against the Colts?

Other than the game he came in for the injured Pennington, he has not thrown a single desperate pass.

In fact, he looks more efficient than CP10 through two games AND can get the ball down field.

Yes, I shouted that AND.

BTW: “A lot of shovel passes?”

Since when did we start wanting to play ball like Favre and Romo?

I run a lazy, booze addled & thoroughly unprofessional Dolphins blog: www.thephinisher.com.

Official Grand Poobah of the Chad Henne fan club and bandwagon. Some of you have a lot to prove before you can climb on.

by The Phinisher on Oct 24, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beav is still so damn pissed about it he had to say it twice!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 24, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as am I

Just think how stupid the average Jest fan is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! ( a parody of a George Carlin line)

Attorney General of the Matty I Fan Club
Driver of the draft Brandon Spikes bandwagon

by PhinsTifosi on Oct 24, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as am I

Just think how stupid the average Jest fan is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! ( a parody of a George Carlin line)

Attorney General of the Matty I Fan Club
Driver of the draft Brandon Spikes bandwagon

by PhinsTifosi on Oct 24, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL its spreading!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 24, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I figured!

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 25, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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