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Onside Kick Analysis


How would it be possible to beat the Saints?

I'm not guaranteeing a win, I'm just contemplating how it would be possible to win.

For the purposes of argument, let's assume that

  • the Saints score TD every time they have the ball (sadly realistic with our pass defense) AND
  • the Dolphins are able to ANSWER every Saints TD drive with a TD of their own. (I suggest going for it on fourth down instead of punting and even in field goal range, but that may not be necessary)
  • the Dolphins attempt an onside kick every time instead of kicking it away (successful 1/3 of the time)

Here's how the scoring might unfold:

Saints win the toss. Fins opening kick off (onside kick failed). Saints score (short field) 0-7

Fins answer with a TD instead of a FG (7+ min drive) 7-7

Fins kick off (onside fails). Saints score (short field) 7-14

Fins answer Saints with a TD not a FG (7+ min drive) 14-14

Fins kick off (onside succeeds) settle for a FG 17-14

Fins kick off again (onside fails), Saints score 17-21

Fins answer with TD not FG (7+ min drive strategically running out the clock for the half) 24-21

END OF FIRST HALF

Fins receive the kickoff settle for a FG (7+ min drive) 27-21

Fins kick off (onside fails), Saints score 27-28

Fins answer with a TD instead of a FG (7+ min drive) 34-28

END THIRD QUARTER

Fins kick off (onside succeeds) settle for a FG 37-28

Fins kick off (onside fails) Saints score 37-35

Fins answer with TD not FG (7+ min drive, Saints D is exhausted) 44-35

Fins kick off (onside fails), Saints score 44-42

Fins answer with game-winning drive, run out the clock against an exhausted Saints D 51-42

Even if the Saints get the ball back, they can get at most 8 points Fins win 51-50

END OF GAME

onside kick analysis: Fins succeed only 2/8 times, yet win 51-50.

Obviously this hypothetical scenario is heavily dependent on the assumptions above.

Key Considerations:

1. Fins must be creative in their onside kick plays and must execute well.

2. By giving the Saints a short field, they are not able to mount time-consuming drives. Provided the Fins can convert 3rd downs, fourth downs, and stay out of third down altogether, they will wear out a very good Saints D with long physical drives in hopefully unseasonably hot and humid weather.

3. This scenario is not dependent on the Fins D AT ALL. Hopefully they can get some deflections at the line on third down, but the assumption here is that the Saints score every time and they score TDs not FGs.

4. Special Teams TDs count the same as answering a Saints TD with a TD. Not as much value in the TOP category, but as long as the Saints always have a short field, they will lose the TOP battle.

5. It is unreasonable to expect that the Fins will answer every Saints TD with a TD of their own, but as you can see from the scoring analysis above, if you can score a TD off of an onside kick recovery or be more successful on onside kicks, you can afford fourth down failures and the consequential Saints scores deep in Fins territory.

Here are some Onside Kick plays that I thought of utilizing some of the fastest and tallest players on the Fins who have good ball skills (since we don't anticipate kicking off, no need for big burly fast guys who can't hang onto the ball).

Onside Kick Play 1. Normal kickoff formation with special kick recovery players. Halfway through their run up to the kick off line, they all plant their left foot and make a 45 degree angle cut toward the right. Carpenter kicks the ball into the ground to get it high into the air toward the right. Receiving team is back on their heels or possibly leaning/sliding to the right. The entire 10 man kickoff team is angling toward the right. Fins outnumber Saints at the 10 yard mark two to one, maybe three to one.

Onside Kick Play 2. Normal formation. Players perform the 45 degree swerve to the right as before but just as Carpenter reaches the ball, the entire team makes a sharp cut to the left. Saints are caught leaning/sliding to the right. Fins outnumber/outjump/volleyball the ball to an open man on the left.

Onside Kick Play 3. Normal formation. Players on right head 45 degrees to the right. Players on left head 45 degrees to the left. Saints receiving team leans with the Fins motion. Carpenter has apparent option to kick left or right. When Carpenter contacts the ball, Fins on both sides make counter cuts to the middle of the field. Fins outnumber Saints in the middle. Carpenter squibs the ball to the middle.

Onside Kick Play 4. Anticipating the Saints moving entire receiving team forward, Carpenter picks a Saints player, informs the team in the huddle and kicks a line drive right at the player. Entire team runs to fumble recovery of ricochet off of Saints player. Fins know where to run, Saints don't. Fins outnumber Saints.

Onside Kick Play 5. Normal formation. Carpenter kicks deep to a predetermined open area behind the bunched up recovery lines of Saints. Fins run through Saints lines to get to spot first. Fins know where to run, Saints don't. Fins outnumber Saints.

Fins have 5 different plays to run (with variants), they simply choose and focus on one. Saints must prepare for all 5 and guess which one is coming. Advantage Fins.

Sorry for the length.

Poll
Onside Kicking is risky, but it is the best option v. New Orleans
I'm a believer. This is preferable to Brees v. Wilson/Bell
10 votes
You are selling our defense short, make them drive the length of the field
11 votes
Creative but you are overlooking certain key factors that make this a bad idea
13 votes

34 votes | Poll has closed

This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.

Comment 29 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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i like it haha, but u gotta leave it up to the defense. They can force some turnovers i think. i really like this idea though, very well thought out.

by miamiphins190 on Oct 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT reply actions  

you

might have found a winning combination their our special teams need serious help but of course this depends on you scoring on our defense

by simone219 on Oct 20, 2009 6:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree that Fins must score TDs on Saints D AND not settle for FGs

But if the Fins can’t score on the Saints’ D, they don’t deserve to win anyway.
Taking this approach is a very pessimistic view of our own D, but sadly a rather realistic view. So why not use what is to advantage (special teams, surprise, weather, run game) instead of bemoaning what isn’t (Brees v. our Secondary)

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

While I give you big props for the creativity of your full game plan I think we all know its a bit

far fetched. That being said I think you could use parts of it to surprise the Saints and gain some advantages.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 20, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

very very very interesting

i kinda like it

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No hating on Jay Fiedler, please.
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by samdaman on Oct 20, 2009 6:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Watch out for Sharper

and make sure he doesn’t go all the way if he intercepts.

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by TheTealDeal on Oct 20, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

This all sounds very insane, crazy, nuts, ect. but

if things begin to look like they are not going to work out at some point I say we try some of this mixed in with playing it straight.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 20, 2009 7:47 PM EDT reply actions  

who gets hurt and how?

please explain

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

because after the first or 2nd time, and the saints figure it out...

you’re inviting them into a short-distance scrum for the ball every time. Given that you put the guys with best hands out there to pick up onside kicks, its just asking for a knee injury to guys we don’t want knee injuries on when they wade into the pile for the ball.

by afmo on Oct 20, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken

you would have players who would not normally play special teams exposed to “rough housing at the bottom of pile ups”
My hands team would consist of Joey 6-8 Haynos, Jason 6-6 Taylor, Sean 6-4 Smith, Patrick 6-5 Turner, Greg human-vacuum-cleaner Camarillo (or Brian Hartline), Davone great-hands Bess, Ted 4.29 Ginn, Kory 4.38 Sheets, Chris 4.3 Clemons, and Vontae 4.4 Davis. I would hate to see a twisted knee for Smith or Davis, but all the others can be replaced or aren’t even active on game days.
I think the risk is minimal.
Onside kicks would happen at most 8-10 times.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

One last comment

Onside Kick Strategy goes hand in hand with a strategy of refusing to punt in order to keep the ball and score TDs instead of FGs
Without the innovation, surprise, and retention of possession of the onside kick, the score can get out of hand quickly if the Fins fail to convert a majority of the fourth downs. It is not just about TOP, but about having more opportunities to keep the ball and score.
Basically, you are gambling that your offense with Henne and Ronnie/Ricky against their D is a better matchup than your D against their offense at the risk of losing field position. (I think still worth the risk in light of all of the relatively frequent 40, 50, and 60 yard plays given up by the D).
Also a variant I forgot to mention: You also practice BLOCKING their extra points and you use a form of the Wildcat with Thigpen or White to GO FOR 2 after each TD. Hence you only need to score 3 times to their 4.
3×8 = 24 v. 4×6 = 24

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions  

you are assuming the dolphins have a quick strike offense

Current Phinsider Feud Points: 23

There are times in my life wheere I have self-doubt, but when this happens, I simply ask myself: What would Don Draper do? So I bone a random whore.

by Patssuck456 on Oct 20, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

No actually I am depending on them to burn the clock and win TOP

It won’t hurt to hit a few bombs to Ginn to make the defense back off, but I’m expecting Miami to have to ground it out even if slightly behind.
We want a TIRED Saints D late in the quarters. It helps the conversion of 3rd down and 4th down.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

glad to see you took my

post and ran with it…

enjoyed the full game effect.

now make it happen.

The Future is now, stop the bandwagon and lets get the Henne train rollin, as we all hope that the 14th dwarf is the real prince charming.

by W NY Fins Fan on Oct 20, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I have as much influence on the Trio...

as I have on you all. NONE

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's just not true

and i have the restraining order to prove it…

ooops, i’m not suppose to talk about that.

The Future is now, stop the bandwagon and lets get the Henne train rollin, as we all hope that the 14th dwarf is the real prince charming.

by W NY Fins Fan on Oct 21, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL!

I think…

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 22, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you need to give our defense

A little more credit. Yes, Gibril will miss a tackle. Probably YB will miss the bomb to Colsten. But with our pass rushers (including a possible Matt Roth appearance) and Vontae & Sean, I think we can put some heat on Brees and force a few turnovers.

We can easily win if we hold onto the ball and force turnovers.

by Ben I on Oct 20, 2009 11:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Easier said than done

That is the game plan I expect to see and will cheer for,
but I’m just remembering watching the game channel display on NFL.com and seeing these outrageously long arrows cross the screen for big plays against our D, especially right after long TD drives by our offense.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 20, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not exclusively

According to phins.com The Stadium Cafe (Addison) is the home of the Dallas Dolphins’ Fan Club.
I’ve never been there. I might try it sometime though.
From phins.com

4872 Beltline Road. Located on the corner of Beltline and Addison Rd’s, the Miami Dolphin fans are guaranteed the “Dolphins Den” for some of the best seating in the house. Great food, drinks, fun, and family can all attend. The local Dolphin fan club meets here for all regularly scheduled games. Come for a good time and bring your friends so they don’t miss out. If you’re in Dallas and you can’t make it to Miami, join us for the game.
Home of the Dallas Dolphins’ Fan Club.

I see a link for watching parties and I don’t see a Dolphins logo on there. A Detroit Lions watching party (WHY?) and of course the Cowboys.
You may want to call ahead to check them out.

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 21, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I will call and maybe check them out. Thats not too far from me.

I’m up in Denton. Let me know if you stumble across anything else.

"I hope you know a lot more than you believe in"-Gram Parsons

by texascowpunk on Oct 21, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the TOP - 42 min just in the six 7 min TD drives. the FG drives must be 1 play Henne to Ginn 40 yd drives!

Just think how stupid the average Jest fan is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! ( a parody of a George Carlin line)

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by PhinsTifosi on Oct 21, 2009 1:19 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm thinking the Brees TD drives from Miami territory take, oh, 30 seconds tops

Abandoned the Draft Sean Smith at #25 Bandwagon to Join the Draft Sean Smith at #61 Bandwagon and get Vontae Davis and Chris Clemons. Trio > me.

by DolphDallas on Oct 21, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.
No hating on Jay Fiedler, please.
Official Back-Up Phinsider LOL'er.
The one and only "ho-nerd"

by samdaman on Oct 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

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