He can possibily be a number 1 receiver. Not every #1 has to be a Fitzgerald, Boldin, Owens, or A. Johnson. Torry Holt 5’10, Steve Smith 5’8 maybe, O.J McDuffie did well here but not in the same category as the others. But the list goes on and yes Ginn needs to bulk up.

A receivers thrid season is where they really blossom, and I believe he will improve in his, because he has the potential. Bulking up and working on the hands and route running will really work.

I really like Pennington and think he is great for the team right now, but until a stronger armed QB takes the field I do not think you will see Ginn hit full potential. Although Penny can lob the ball down field and there is not much question on the distance, it is the zip and timing that it takes to get there. If Ginn has CB’s beat the fludder alows them to catch up to make a play. Also wind has an affect, as seen in the later games, on the deep fludder ball.

*By no means do I think Pennington is a bad QB and I am not bashing him, for the offense the Fins ran and how well he keeps control of it and does not turn over I am a huge Penny supporter. I am just saying a faster ball with more velocity will really help Ginn.

We get someone who can bomb the ball I love penningotn but he cant get it done down field and thats one of the few strengths that Ginn has his flat out speed but without that theres really not much Ginn can do although I was very impressed with him this season

6’4 —> 215 = bmi of 26.2

the article wasn’t meant to prove Pennington can throw the ball 100 yards across the field, it was more of a subtle dig at those fans (and teams) who constantly complain about his weak arm strength limiting the offense, and do not realize that a big arm and no brain limit you even more – hence the comparison to the Jets and Favre. I guess I should have clarified more.

I thought you were right on about, Expections, Pennington’s arm & Ginn’s need for a complimentary WR. I thought it was kind of cool the way he came back for Pennington’s deep throws, I’m sure they had talked about that in their weekly meetings.

I believe he will be a very good no. 2 WR in this league, no 2 to Hakeem Nicks, WR, out of North Carolina.

I’m sure Ginn will continue to put on some weight during the offseason just like last year and improve all is route running ability .. there is a lot more to it than just that though .. he will be getting smarter and being able to see what the defenses are doing more to stop him. Also the offensive co-ordinator will understand him more and see different ways to get him involved in the offense. He hasn’t topped out and his stats will continue to improve.

Ginn also has had a lot of bad things happen to start his pro career .. injury in Championship game which limited his offseason workouts, having three different QB’s start and then the changing of offensive systems and adding another QB a month before the season started in his second season. I can see him having a breakout season next year .. just ask Pennington and all the WR he has dealt with and when they “got it” .. 3rd Year.

“Average height” and “Average BMI”. I’m sure they mean “average for WRs”, right?
The average height for white men in the US is approximately 5 foot – 10 inches tall. Black men average ~’5 9.9"

So to me, it looks like Ginn has above average height compared to US population averages. He is about 5’11".

If you still can’t get the image in your mind of what I’m talking about, look at these simple graphs.
http://fantasyfootballcalculator.com/blog/2008/07/using-height-and-bmi-to-predict-successful-wide-receivers/

it would be nice though.

This team needs to build around the run, upgrade the line, run blocking and keep the good backs while finding new ones that can fill a gap if one is hurt. Playing the pass isn’t what this team should try to be – even if we did surprisingly well at it. It just doesn’t fit what our skill set is at the moment: No elite receivers, no elite quarterback, but we had one of the better passing attacks.

As to Teddy G’s BMI. He’s 5’11. His average height is suitable cause he makes up with his speed. What I worry, as some others do, is if he bulks up would he loss his speed? He needs that ability to break off jams to seperate, bulk would help, but if he can break off and the corner can recover whats the point (remember the Bills game, where was his speed then, he should have taken that ball to the house!).

Thanks for answering my questions.

While I agree that we need to improve our run-blocking, it should be remembered that teams win or lose with the passing game more than the running game.

This team just can’t give up on passing because they don’t appear to have the players for that kind of scheme. If they do that, they are going to be toast.

Miami actually had one of the most effective passing attacks in the league this year; it just didn’t stretch the field very much.

there are no numbers on them. But according to the fact that Ginn is 5’ 11", and the overlap in height between the “short” and “sleight” categories, it absolutely looks like he could add 5-10 lbs of muscle and fall into the top of the “short” category, or the bottom of the “sleight” category.

It is a thought provoking idea, but it is beginning to make me think that numbers can lie.
:)

What I will say is that success in football cannot be predicted with numbers. There are too many factors that go into the game, too many moving parts, to accurately prove anything strictly with statistics. If you could, people wouldn’t consistently draft busts. Stats can only prove one thing: what has already happened. You can’t predict anything because there’s always gonna be exceptions. You can’t say that Ginn can’t be an elite WR with his build just because in the last 10 years none of the “elite” WR’s were his size. Duper and Clayton, I’m sure, didn’t fit into any of these categories. How many guys classified as “short” were considered Elite before Steve Smith broke the mold? BMI can only tell you what a guy looks like. It doesn’t take into effect muscle, strength, speed, hands, aggressiveness, leaping ability, determination, hand-eye coordination, or anything else that goes into being a good WR. Now, before you tell me that it’s necessary and not sufficient, I think football skills are much, much more important to being a good football player than size and weight. I also think watching a guy play is a much better indicator of what kind of player he will be than calculating stats and judging him based on numbers in a spreadsheet. Call me old-fashioned. But the game on the field can’t be decided by running numbers through formulas.

that every GM is using these numbers before they draft someone. We don’t know if anyone with the power to select a player is using these numbers, so to say that the fact that there remains draft busts proves the data wrong is off-base. Maybe there wouldn’t be as many draft busts if the personnel evaluators in the NFL weren’t as averse to different ways of viewing players as some of the people here are.

And look at the big draft busts of recent years. Guess what, they don’t fit in any category: Troy Williamson, Charles Rogers, Matt Jones, Mike Williams, Travis Taylor.

And I keep hearing that statistics only tell the past, they can’t predict the future. That’s absurd. I guess even though the sun has risen every morning since the dawn of time, that’s still not enough data to suggest that it will very likely rise again tomorrow morning. Look, I"m not claiming that stats are the be-all and end-all, but to simply dismiss the painfully obvious correlations between body build and elite success is foolish.

And actually, Mark Duper was 5’9", 185 pounds – directly in the Short category. Clayton didn’t fit into a category, but I’m not positive that these methods would even apply to that era of football.

Also, Steve Smith is just one of many elite receivers who fit in the Short category. He didn’t break any mold. Others who fit into that category include: Wes Welker, Santana Moss, Lee Evans, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, and Laveranues Coles.

I realize that those qualities you listed are extremely important. Even with the ideal height/BMI combo, about one half of those players still won’t pan out. But I’d rather go with that 50% chance of elite level play, than with a near zero chance.

I’m not saying having that type of build guarantees success in one’s rookie season. Obviously it’s going to take any receiver a few years to develop.

Ever think that the height/BMI combinations are just quantitative measurements of which players have the best chance of getting separation from CBs (for Slight and Short WRs) or providing a large target for the QB (thick and tall ones)?

However low center of gravity in shorter receivers could allow cuts to happen more naturally, but body control which can be trained is the biggest factors in pro receivers. Boldin, Fitzgerald and A. Johnson use tremendous body control to get open on slants, crossing patterns and sharp in and out routes. They happen to be blessed with size to bring down balls in double coverage.

Its just that you “Short and Slight” guys need to depend on route running to be successful, and “Thick and Tall” guys are able to get open in other ways and are used in other ways.

It is all about using the quy in the right system. If a short guy, with speed, (Ginn) can get open on routes and out run people why does he need to be able to go up into double coverage to battle for a ball? It is another part of a game which will be a plus to his numbers, but I do not expect him to run over players, I expect him to run by them.

And since I can not compare him to Steve Smith cause hes 5-8 pounds lighter or to Torry Holt cause he is 1 inch shorter. Than how can I compare Boldin 6’1 217lbs to Fitzgerald who is 2 inches taller or to Andre Johnson 225 lbs. Or your example Reggie Wayne 6’0 198 to Wes Welker 5’9 185 to Coles at 5’11 193.

Are you an athletic trainer, or doctor is that you know so much. I notice you live in Mass so do I maybe lunch?