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Looking to the Future: QB

After a let down in the 1st round of the playoffs, there were a lot of very upset people on this site.  I saw mutiple calls for Chad Pennington to be benched in favor of Chad v2.0 aka Chad Henne.  The point of this article is not to argue for one QB over the over.  I am a selfish, selfish man and I have no particular rooting interest except for this:  I want the Dolphins to win.  For every arguement about Pennington and the limitations his arm puts on this offense, there is a counter argument against Henne and the limitations his inexperience saddles us with.  I'll leave it up to the Coaching Staff to decide which trade off is better as they are the pros and we are not- and I think they have done enough to earn our trust after one season. 

The point of this article is to address a simple fact.  Pennington is 32 and not getting any younger, and last year we spent a 1st day draft pick on a QB.  Now it may not be next season- heck, it might not even be the season after that- but at some point, Henne is going to be the starting QB for the Miami Dolphins.  I would like to take a look and see what we may have.

Star-divide

People look to a lot of things when they try to project the success of a college quarterback.  How big is he?  How strong?  Can he scramble or is he a pocket passer?  Scouts salivate over prospects like Matt Stafford due to his "ideal size" and laser like arm.  We put them in the combine and measure how much they bench, how fast they run, and how far they can throw.  But the last time I watched a football game, I didn't see the QB dead lifting anything on the field.  Tom Brady couldn't outrun my grandmother, and she is dead.  Joe Montana never threw bullets, but I think he turned out OK too didn't he?

Maybe its the Wonderlic score right?  QB is a "cerebral" position, so maybe the smartest QBs are the ones who make it?  Terry Bradshaw, and our own Dan Marino had some of the lowest scores ever for a QB.  How did they do again?

So do QBs need to sit on the bench and learn on the job to be successful?  Well, sometimes that helps.  Aaron Rodgers had a great year on an awful team after riding the pine for a few years.  Matt Cassell looked pretty good as well.  But then how do you explain the fact that two rookie QBs made it to the play offs this year?

Is it being prepped by a big time program?  Carson Palmer came from USC, Peyton Manning was groomed at SEC powerhouse Tennessee, and Matt Ryan came from Flutie U aka Boston College.  But Big Ben played at Miami of Ohio in the MAC, Phillip Rivers came from NC State, and Eli played at SEC doormat Ole Miss.

 

If you really sit down and look at the trends, there are two numbers that stand above all others.

#1 is completion percentage. #2 is games started.

Look at the evidence. 

Lets start with a very high profile example.  The year is 1998.  The Colts have the #1 overall pick, and need a QB desperately.  They have their choice of 2 consenus picks.  Scouts went back and forth over who would be better.  The more consistent Manning or the high upside Leaf.  It really seemed to be down to a coin flip.  Obviously we know how it turned out.  Manning went to the Colts, and 10 years later is considered a sure fire Hall of Famer.  Leaf burned out big time, and just resigned as QB coach at a small school in Texas.  But who could have seen this comming?  How did a coin flip turn into such a disparity.  Look at the numbers.

Peyton Manning: 63% completion percentage, 45 games started.

Ryan Leaf: 54% Completion percentage, 24 games started.

If you subscribe to the started-completed theory, the choice would have been easy. 

Maybe this is a fluke you say? 

Lets look at some more examples:

Phillip Rivers: 64% completion percentage in 51 games started.  He was the highest rated passer in the NFL this past season

Carson Palmer: 59.1% CP and 45 games started

Eli Manning was a 4 year starter with a 60+% CP.  Ben Roethlisberger left a year early but completed over 65% of his passes.  On the other hand- you have these guys who were thought to be sure fire franchise QBs:

Joey Harrington- 28 startes, barely hit 55%

Akili Smith- 19 starts, another one who barely hit 55%

Jim Druckenmiller- 24 starts, sub 55%

Kyle Boller- 42 starts but not even 50% completion percentage.

 

So how does our guy stack up?

47 games started, 59.7% completion percentage.  What does that seem to indicate?  Well he compares favorably with Carson Palmer, which I think anybody he would be glad to be "stuck with".  He had a solid 4 year career, though his senior year production did dip with some significant time lost due to injury (Only 10 games played vs 13 his junior year, 17 vs 22 TDs, 9 vs 8 INTs, 58.3 vs 61.9% completion percentage).  My guess would be that if he had not been injured, his senior year would have been similar to slightly better than his junior year as he finished out the season by shredding up my Florida Gators for a career high 373 yards while completing 64.1% of his passes, 9.6 Yards/Attempt, and 3 TDs vs 2 INTs.

 

Just to compare this years super rookies Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco had 32 starts and a 59.9% of passes complete, and 26 starts with 63.4 % of passes completed respectively.

I would say this projects to a pretty bright future for our current pine rider.  At worst, we should expect a solid pro career out of him, with the potential to match up with the Carson Palmers and Eli Mannings (at least the Manning of the past 2 seasons) in the NFL. Learning behind "Coach Pennington" can only help.

So while we don't know when he will take over as the leader of our offense,  I think we should all be fairly confident when he does.

 

This fanpost was written by one of The Phinsider's registered users.

3 recs | Comment 42 comments

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Good breakdown....

I think something like this was posted not too long after Henne was drafted. But it’s a great read for all Phin Fans because after almost a decade of not having a decent QB, we now have two.

A good QB has three things: Composure, accuracy, and the ability to make good decisions.

Those stats are a good way to quantify, in terms of numbers, those traits versus other QB’s.

Seriously?

by Daren on Jan 10, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the looks of it Henne has all of those

He was hailed as a leader at Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiichigan(along with his LT)
He was acurrate and he kept his cool, now who does that remind us of…… Oh right I know Phad Chennington!

"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"

-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic

by Patssuck456 on Jan 10, 2009 8:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hit it

with the GOO CANNON!! lol

Great post again McShay. I actually think you know more football than McShay lol.
I agree about experience and completion percentage being two very strong indicators of QB success coming out of college.

I do think, however, that you need prototypical size, height, arm strength, and solid mechanics, or the ability to offset any of those (i.e. Rivers funky release if offset by his accuracy using it). You get a guy that’s big, can move around, has good arm strength and doesn’t have any hitches or funky things involved in his release, AND he has a high amount of starts and a high completion percentage, more than likely he’ll be successful.

And Henne has all that. He’s one start off from 3 complete NFL seasons’ worth (albeit not against NFL defenses). The game has already slowed down for him, meaning adjusting to the speed of the NFL game will be easier for him.

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 1:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think you're on to something

i have always wondered how to choose between one qb over the other when it is too close to call, guess i have my answer now lol, thanks

i think Henne will better than half the qb’s in the league when he finally does start and gets a big receiver and with Penny backing him up and teaching him, POSSIBLY he can become a top 10 or even top 5 eventually, yes call me crazy but this is what i believe he can become if he has the right personnel around him…and spending a full year on the sideline his first has helped him understand the game more, learn the offense, learn how NFL Defenses play, and get acclimated to the speed of the NFL, and like Nicky said, it will slow down the game for him when he finally does play….And of course experience is a factor, which Henne certainly has, and also Completion Percentage shows that he makes smart decisions, which at 60% shows that he does make smart decisions, and with Penny tutoring him, he will make even smarter decisions and up that percentage….i am ready for the Henne era to begin, but i have total confidence in the Coaching staff and BP to make the right decision to when they feel Henne is ready to start in the National Football League and for the Miami Dolphins….

-I did what last night?
-no, i didnt!!!
-I DID?!?!
-SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!!

-No excuses, No explanations

by MiamihastheDolphins.... on Jan 10, 2009 1:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

all signs point to a guy that will have success in the NFL, and the system we use really doesn’t put a huge amount of responsibility on the QB to make plays (ala Denver, NE, Dallas). It’s a smashmouth scheme where the run sets up the pass, and our QB just has to make plays when called upon, not carry the team to 35 points every week. However long the coaches feel he needs to sit and learn is fine with me. You can never have too many reps breaking down film and making in-game adjustments before it becomes real.

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 1:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

he wont have to carry the team and wont have as much pressure as some other qb’s, all he needs to do is make smart decisions…very similar to what was asked of Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco, they offenses are run-oriented and they dont have too much pressure to make the big plays, they have the running game to support them, plus Flacco had an amazing defense to bail him out also as we know all too well, and Penny/Henne will have a similar run game to help them out and take off the pressure…i’m leaning more towards Henne because of his arm strength

-I did what last night?
-no, i didnt!!!
-I DID?!?!
-SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!!

-No excuses, No explanations

by MiamihastheDolphins.... on Jan 10, 2009 1:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

he’ll be in a similar situation as Flacco: a talented team with a QB that can make plays when needed.

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 1:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good stuff.

I did a post on this back in 2007: http://www.thephinsider.com/2007/4/16/0619/91876

Again, the numbers are similar in terms of how well comp% and starts predicts their success. But like Nicky said, you need to also have the physical tools. And from what I’ve seen with Henne, he does seem to possess those tools.

by Matty I on Jan 10, 2009 1:46 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree that you need to have tools, etc.

I just think we look too much to the golden armed god stereotype when there are so many other factors to account for. The # of games started really just gives you a large enough sample size to judge a QB. If he has played a lot of games and still gets drafted, that means he looks good over time and has shown consistency. Also helps weed out the “system QBs” who put up huge #s by throwing 2 yard screens and having receivers get YAC. For example- a QB like Graham Harrell has started a ton of games, and has unreal #s including completion percentage, but the AirRaid offense sets him up by having him throw a ton of short, high %age throws that won’t be there in the NFL.

Having a high completion percentage requires so many things which is why I think it is such a solid predictor. It is the perfect sign that you not only have the tools, but that you are making good decisions, can probably read a defense, etc. It just seems to be the best indicator that both the physical AND mental aspects are there.

"They say statistics are for losers, but losers are usually the ones thinking that. . . . Everything we do is analyzed. Is that the bottom line? No. You can't analyze the heart of Tim Tebow." - Urban Meyer

by GatorPhan on Jan 10, 2009 2:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

But a guy like Colt Brennan had a ton of games started and a high completion percentage, but being 6’0 185 and throwing sidearm doesn’t exactly point to success.

It’s a great predictor, and great separator of the standard prototypes, but I think you still need to look for solid measureables, ALONG WITH the starts/comp% factor. I think if you find BOTH those, you’ll have a good one on your hands (crosses fingers for Henne)

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 2:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah

I mentioned:

Also helps weed out the "system QBs" who put up huge #s by throwing 2 yard screens and having receivers get YAC. For example- a QB like Graham Harrell has started a ton of games, and has unreal #s including completion percentage, but the AirRaid offense sets him up by having him throw a ton of short, high %age throws that won’t be there in the NFL.

He got set up for success in college and you always have to account for that. # of games played helps you determine if it was the system or the QB who has the #s

"They say statistics are for losers, but losers are usually the ones thinking that. . . . Everything we do is analyzed. Is that the bottom line? No. You can't analyze the heart of Tim Tebow." - Urban Meyer

by GatorPhan on Jan 10, 2009 2:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

those pesky system guys screw everything up lol

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 2:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

I hate to use that term. Everyone has a system (at least I haven’t seen an offense that just goes out and lines up randomly. . .well- maybe the Wannstache at Pitt). Its just a fact that some systems like the AirRaid cover up weak arms.

I’ll be the first to admit my team has a system, and a damn good one. Doesn’t mean a system QB can’t be a great NFL QB- it just means you have to figure out what is the man and what is the coaching.

"They say statistics are for losers, but losers are usually the ones thinking that. . . . Everything we do is analyzed. Is that the bottom line? No. You can't analyze the heart of Tim Tebow." - Urban Meyer

by GatorPhan on Jan 10, 2009 2:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol that's true

I think the term “system guys” is saying that they’re products OF the system, like the offense they run sets up all the success they have, not individual talent.

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 2:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its unfair

they run up these HUGE stats and suck more balls than a gay guy when the get to the NFL…its ridiculous

-I did what last night?
-no, i didnt!!!
-I DID?!?!
-SHUT THE F*CK UP!!!!

-No excuses, No explanations

by MiamihastheDolphins.... on Jan 10, 2009 2:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

I hope to god we found our future QB in Henne, because with all more and more college teams running wide open spread option type shit, the NFL QB pool is getting smaller and smaller every year. Everybody’s just gonna take the USC kid every year and hope for the best..

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 2:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

but dont count out beck. Im serious.

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really think Brennan will have success in the future somewhere. He reminds me of a bit of Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia. I know that is out there but neither of them were given a fair shake due to there size and others but all they do is win and put up good #’s. Sometimes people just want proper size .. while measureables do matter there is always excpetions to the rule ….

Thank You to all the teams that skipped on Devone Bess because he didn’t run a quick enough 40

by markus_13 on Jan 10, 2009 2:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL Matty

2 comments on that post….man you must be proud how far this place has come….

why does ur profile say “joined feb11 2008”..just wondering….came across it looking at the sites older pre-me posts the other day

"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins

by Rzayo24 on Jan 10, 2009 2:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you should know that

isn’t that the day you started his power supply?

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 2:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's the date i signed up for my account on the "2.0 version"

But if you look below, you can see the day people originally signed up for the site. It’s in the section that shows all the blogs people have signed up for.

by Matty I on Jan 10, 2009 11:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

60.025% with 43 starts
69.3% senior year

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:34 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he was a goddamn rook. WITH NO O-LINE. CUT THIS GUY SOME SLACK. my goodness. you guys are so against beck and everything about him. similarly too how many (including me) were against camarillo.

But seriously if you guys are going to have an open qb competion…not a biased one sided. white wash lets forget about last years franchise, qb competition…then beck must get a chance.

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beck didn’t come into a good spot, he came into a team that hadnt won a game and had a ton of injuries and no real skill on the offense yet while his practice all season had been running the scout teams and 2nd unit for two weeks before CamCam made the bright move to start him. that probably set him back a year or two in his development

by markus_13 on Jan 10, 2009 2:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so now is the best oppurtunity to see what he has

i know hes not the youngest…but hes 27…guess who is also 27…ronnie brown…is ronnie brown old? NO!
He has all the physical tools. People say weak arm…nope. He can sling the ball 70 yards

A wise person said this. ..

And perhaps inserting John into the starting lineup would force defenses to actually respect long passes and free up the “box” for the running game. It’s clear that opposing teams simply don’t respect Pennington’s arm – nor should they. And we know that Beck, if nothing else, has a strong arm (he threw for a higher mph at the Combine than even Jay Cutler and Chad Henne did).

He has the right attitude, physical tools, and now with 2 years under his belt, he gives us the best oppurtunity to win. Honestly, most of you should agree without calling people s.cadets, that Pennington was nothing more than a caretaker. He was someone who was brought in to hold up some consitency at the QB position so that the younger guys could be developed. The fact that he played his best football and played at such a high level was indeed the reason we went to the playoffs. But now…it is year 2.

This is when the contention starts kicking in and it is time we had that QB. Honestly deep down..We need someone to be our franchise qb, and will be with us consistently for the next 8-10 years and be productive. Pennington may give us the extra win next year (but probably wont)…Our young guys have another year under their belt and are going to play much harder. Some say Henne…but I choose to believe in Beck. If we just stick with pennington intill he calls it quits..then we will be right where the jets are. Wasted a youthful progression for a win-now mentality that gets us NOWHERE, but a washed up qb and a playoff spot on the couch.

Before you comment back, and probably freak out for the next 10 minutes calling me hurtful names, really think about what i said.

Enough is enough...we need Natalya back. I believe in John Beck and that LCFF is the man.
Official Leader of the Draft Kenny Britt Bandwagon

Longest Sig In the History of Phinsider belongs to Me. 53 Lines in Total.

Check it out.

Front Paged - Class of 08.

by finsxfactor on Jan 10, 2009 2:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I support him

Everyone has given up on him but us. Well when they are on espn or another professional analyst show, then I will start to listen to them. The John Beck of today is different from the John Beck of the Cam Cam Era. He also was there learning under Chad P as was Henne. When he is great just like when Ted Ginn is great then they do not need to jump on the bandwagons.

here kitty kitty kitty BANG!

by bryankstro on Jan 10, 2009 3:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

because ESPN and all the professional analysts have proven how much they know.

"Are we doing this? Is this happening?"

by Little Nicky 21 on Jan 10, 2009 3:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beck will be good .... but with us ???

not sure if we will ever seen Beck start for us under center as he is our 3rd QB now and we have Pennington who should be our starting QB going into next year. I like the thoughts of him atleast starting another season as he is the locker room leader and having Henne come in if he gets hurt …. which does tend to happen in the NFL. After that a miracle would have to happen to see Beck make it in .. I like him as a QB and he didn’t really get a fair shot with the Dolphins but that stuff happens all the time. I could see him actually being traded for a 4th-6th rounder … he isn’t the Trifecta product and probably doesnt’ fit there mold so that is my thoughts on that but we will have to see how he performs in the OTA’s and Training Camp to get a better feel for all of this

by markus_13 on Jan 10, 2009 4:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i meant thats your opinion

The trifecta doesn’t stop and look and say well John Beck is playing better then Chad Henne but, he isn’t one of our guys so we are going to start Henne. Please I can’t stand it when people say that. Whoever is playing the best is the most likely to win will be QB job.

here kitty kitty kitty BANG!

by bryankstro on Jan 10, 2009 4:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i know what you mean

but isn’t that the truth? I don’t agree with it either but that is just what I feel like the team will do

by markus_13 on Jan 10, 2009 4:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The best thing the Fins can do for Beck is to trade him

I still believe he can succeed in the NFL, I’m sure by now he’s gotten his new throwing motion down. At worst, he’ll be a very good backup.

"How can I blame you
When it's me I can't forgive?"

-From the Unforgiven III off of Death Magnetic

by Patssuck456 on Jan 10, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about competition at every position?

What do you think keeps players honest on the training field and on the pitch?
competition is what you need you to make the players improving and pushing themselves.
Chad and Beck need to hammer it out over the off-season to see where the future of this franchise goes an open and fair competition.
Trade him too early and he has no real value, but if he shows some willingness and smarts in camp then alot of people are going to look at him and his value rises.
But if we do trade Beck we are again in the position of needing a relatively high ranked QB, because Penne is one stinker of a game away from being the veteran backup and you need two younger QB’s to keep the momentum going.
Don’t write Beck of just yet.

by DickDevil on Jan 11, 2009 4:07 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chad H was 0-4 vs. The Buckeyes.........

But, I beleive he is our future and I’m glad he’s a Fin. I’m dying to see the Henne to Ginn deep ball………..

What doesn't kill me, only makes me stronger.......

by Ohiofinfan4life on Jan 10, 2009 9:32 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah

and Peyton Manning was 0-4 vs the Gators ;) I’d still take him on the Phins though.

"They say statistics are for losers, but losers are usually the ones thinking that. . . . Everything we do is analyzed. Is that the bottom line? No. You can't analyze the heart of Tim Tebow." - Urban Meyer

by GatorPhan on Jan 10, 2009 10:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All i got to say is....

I really hope all you Henne/Beck schlong hoppers are right.

"Worst 2 First"...Your 2008 AFC East Champion Miami Dolphins

by Rzayo24 on Jan 11, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Type of Offense In College is a Key

One other thing that I think is in Henne’s favor is the type of offense he ran in college. It was very much a pro type of offense. The NFL has spent more money on drafting QB’s that ran non-conventional offenses (Spread, Run and Shoot, Flex Option to name a few) that you would think they would know better. But watch come April, some draft expert will say that Bradford from Oklahoma will be better than Stafford from Georgia. It will be Alex Smith all over again.

by ct1361 on Jan 11, 2009 2:10 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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